Religious sounding songs, for non religious people...

[Irvine511]

Honestly, I can't believe anyone actually got upset that someone said that all people have a "God-shaped hole".

because a statement like that is predicated upon the assuption that believers know something that non-believers don't.

 

[MadelynIris]

the assuption that believers know something that non-believers don't[/qoute]

Which is essentially what is meant by 'believers' and 'non-believers'. It's defined perfectly in those terms.

By it's very definition, bold sides hold to the assumpition, that they know something the others don't.

I'm guessing those terms are offensive also.

 

[80sU2isBest]

This is amazing to me. Christians can't make such an inoccuous and general statement as "there is a God-shaped hole in everyone" without getting jumped on, yet in these very same forums, it's okay for people to make very incendiary accusations againt me, such as saying that I'm disobeying God because I don't give to certain charities, or that simply by believing that homosexuality is wrong, I am attributing to the hatred that leads people to beat up gays.

In these forums, people can say all manner of accusatory and judgmental things about conservatives and Christians, but let a Christian even make such a harmless statement as "all people need God" and whoa - here come the thought police to bust our hides.

 

[dandy]

...let a Christian even make such a harmless statement as "all people need God" and whoa - here come the thought police to bust our hides.

i think the problem with that statement lies in the fact that it is a blanket statement that includes everyone--you're assuming that this is universally true, when it simply isn't for many people.

 

[80sU2isBest]

i think the problem with that statement lies in the fact that it is a blanket statement that includes everyone--you're assuming that this is universally true, when it simply isn't for many people.

If there is no God, you don't need him.

But if there is a God, everyone needs him, wouldn't you think?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

And yes, it is rather annoying when people say that we are all sinners when I see the person saying that as having no right, having no right to judge me, not knowing me at all, but based on their own personal religion. A religion which is entirely faith based, keep in mind. It might fit you very well, and obviously fits all who believe in it, but it isn't a one size fits all and cannot be applied to everyone. It is continually insulting and frustrating to have it slapped on like it should just be accepted. It is no different to me following others around constantly pointing out why they are bad, wrong, uninformed, or faulted. Besides all this, I have enough of my own guilt. I dont want or need anymore taken on willingly by either myself or someone else who deems it fit to declare me a sinner. I am frankly sick of hearing it. And am frankly sick of the pious reactions as though I have no bloody right to feel as such. I do wish any of those who do this, could feel it from my point of view. I think anyone who had compassion would cease it if they understood.

. That, and the fact that some of the things religion sees as sinful I personally don't consider sinful at all. What is and isn't sinful is a matter of opinion, so yeah, it bothers me when some people say that I've sinned by doing something or other-well, maybe I don't see it that way.

That said, everyone on both sides is still entitled to say what they want. Just be prepared to expect disagreement from other people.

Angela

 

[BonosSaint]

I've been carrying the original question that started this thread in my head for the last couple of days and have been discussing it with a friend of mine in real life. We came to the conclusion that perhaps the something shaped hole people carry is the need for unconditional love and acceptance, the need to feel safe and protected, passionate and useful. Or to be more concise, the Desire Shaped Hole.

For some, their belief in God fills that hole beautifully. For others, their belief in something else fills that hole equally as beautifully. And for others, there is no hole or no need to fill it. And for others, after many searches (including that for God), nothing has filled that hole. We all have our experiences which have shaped the definition of that hole (if it exists). But it appears if there is a hole, it is based on a primal need beyond words and concepts.
And powerful music, which is also beyond words and concepts,
calls to that need.

 

[Liesje]

I've been carrying the original question that started this thread in my head for the last couple of days and have been discussing it with a friend of mine in real life. We came to the conclusion that perhaps the something shaped hole people carry is the need for unconditional love and acceptance, the need to feel safe and protected, passionate and useful. Or to be more concise, the Desire Shaped Hole.

For some, their belief in God fills that hole beautifully. For others, their belief in something else fills that hole equally as beautifully. And for others, there is no hole or no need to fill it. And for others, after many searches (including that for God), nothing has filled that hole. We all have our experiences which have shaped the definition of that hole (if it exists). But it appears if there is a hole, it is based on a primal need beyond words and concepts.
And powerful music, which is also beyond words and concepts,
calls to that need.

Wow, this is pretty much a spot-on description of John Edwards' (Calvinist) theology of free will (or rather the lack thereof).

 

[BonosSaint]

Will have to read up on Calvinism then, I guess. Another thing I'm absolutely ignorant of. Sigh.

 

[beli]

the assuption that believers know something that non-believers don't[/qoute]

Which is essentially what is meant by 'believers' and 'non-believers'. It's defined perfectly in those terms.

No, it is not described perfectly in those terms. The original quote is offensive.

By it's very definition, bold sides hold to the assumpition, that they know something the others don't.

No. I disagree. I am an atheist and I'm quite sure you already know what I know. If you don't its pretty easy to find out. No mystery. I would not be so patronising as to suggest I know something that you don't.

 

[beli]

... it's okay for people to make very incendiary accusations againt me, such as saying that I'm disobeying God because I don't give to certain charities.....

Only someone who believed in God would make such a comment about disobeying God. In my opinion there is no God so there is no way to disobey him/her. Your fellow Christians are making these remarks.

but let a Christian even make such a harmless statement as "all people need God" and whoa - here come the thought police to bust our hides.

Indeed they should. Its an offensive statement. Its like saying "I have found that works for me personally therefore everyone else needs the same thing". What is right for you, may not be right for anyone else let alone everyone else.

 

[beli]

perhaps the something shaped hole people carry is the need for unconditional love and acceptance, the need to feel safe and protected, passionate and useful.

This sounds fair to me, I shall ponder this for a while myself. lol.

 

[nbcrusader]

i think the problem with that statement lies in the fact that it is a blanket statement that includes everyone--you're assuming that this is universally true, when it simply isn't for many people.

There is a considerable gap between "that doesn't apply to me" and "your general statement about humanity personally offends me."

We have abandoned the exchange of ideas.

 

[BonosSaint]

Having to think on a Sunday afternoon my time is so unfair.

 

[BonosSaint]

Oops, sorry, Crusader. I was answering Beli's post.

 

[beli]

Oops, sorry, Crusader. I was answering Beli's post.

Its actually 7:39am on a Monday morning here.

 

[BonosSaint]

Its actually 7:39am on a Monday morning here.

Even worse for you.

 

[MadelynIris]

I would not be so patronising as to suggest I know something that you don't.

Yes, you are. You do know something I don't. You know there is no God.

 

[beli]

Yes, you are. You do know something I don't. You know there is no God.

No I don't. I believe there is no God. I don't know there is no God.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

I don't know the Creed song you are referring to (I do strongly believe though that you listening to creed at all is an issue that can't be explained and needs to be rectified), but I understand the U2 thing for sure. The themes of a lot of U2's 'religious' songs, particularly through the 90's, were certainly not the 'happy clapper' type. They're about temptation away from a belief or faith, and questioning that belief and faith. 'Wake Up Dead Man' - just the fact that he's referring to him as a dead man flies in the face of the single main point of Christian beliefs. It's a sad song, and its really Bono shaking his fist at the sky and saying 'im losing faith here', a feeling of desertion and loneliness. There are plenty of songs - or even just lines in songs - during that Achtung/Zooropa/Pop period that have a similar feeling and i think thats a universal thing, but not necessarily a religious thing, and thats why you like the songs, despite not sharing the christian focus that Bono has. The God shaped hole term is clumsly in this sense. Its a God shaped hole for Bono, and for many others, but really it's a spiritual/soul shaped hole for everyone, filled in different ways, but we all try to fill it. That can have absolutely nothing to do with religion. The other reason why those songs are universal is because there is such and intense feeling of searching and desertion or betrayal. I don't think there'd be anyone here who hasn't sat awake at 2am asking similar questions to Bono, but maybe not about your God, maybe about a partner or a friend or a family member or just your whole direction in life. Something you've put so much into, so much belief and faith, and then to have the intense feeling that that thing has deserted you or done you wrong or may never have been there in the first place.

Anyway, I don't think there's any need to question why you like these songs, the answer is simple and it lies in the power of truly great music, particularly U2's music, and particularly U2's music during the 90s (sorry 80sU2isBest).... but not Creed though. Can't understand that, sorry.

 

[BonosSaint]

Earnie Shavers' post....

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Earnie Shavers' post....

. Well said, Earnie.

Angela

 

[indra]

oooh...I just looked at this thread for the first time since posting....

Guess I touched a nerve. Well, that's good. Now you know how I felt.


And Earnie Shavers post is excellent.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

Isn't "We are all sinners" the same thing as saying "Nobody's perfect"?

 

[BonosSaint]

Isn't "We are all sinners" the same thing as saying "Nobody's perfect"?

Sin's a theological term which implies God. "Nobody's perfect" does not necessarily imply God.

 

[nbcrusader]

Let's get this straight. It is offensive to make a statement that may imply the existence of God?

 

[BonosSaint]

Let's get this straight. It is offensive to make a statement that may imply the existence of God?

No. I wasn't addressing the rest of the posts. I was just answering BrownEyedBoy's post about "We're all sinners" being the same as "Nobody's Perfect." I'm not offended by the term sin or the implication of the existence of God at all. I was just saying that if one does not believe in God, then the concept of sin has no real meaning. However, the concepts of good and evil may.
We have no battle here.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Its an offensive statement. Its like saying "I have found that works for me personally therefore everyone else needs the same thing". What is right for you, may not be right for anyone else let alone everyone else.

No, that's not right. If God exists, you don't need him because he "works for me". You need him because he is God.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Only someone who believed in God would make such a comment about disobeying God. In my opinion there is no God so there is no way to disobey him/her. Your fellow Christians are making these remarks.

The person who said that people who don't give to acertain charities aren't doing the "moral" thing is someone who used to consistently post negative remarks about Conservative Christians.

 

[indra]

The person who said that people who don't give to acertain charities aren't doing the "moral" thing is someone who used to consistently post negative remarks about Conservative Christians.

I didn't think that Conservative Christians were the entire scope of Christians. Perhaps this person just had/has issues with one segment of the religion.