Outdated Sexist Tradition, Or Just A Gesture Of Courtesy And Respect?

[MrsSpringsteen]

Well personally I want things that money can't buy as far as that's concerned, and I would rather have a Diamonique ring or a claddagh ring or something like that than some expensive ring that a guy felt some sort of social pressure to buy. Something that someone goes into debt to buy because he feels pressure to do so has negative meaning to me. If he wants to buy one at some point when he can afford it that's nice, but not necessary. And I would buy him a gift that had symbolic personal meaning to me and it wouldn't have to cost a fortune. The size of the ring has nothing do do with the size of the heart.

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

The size of the ring has nothing do do with the size of the heart.

Like I said before, something more practical and less symbolic would be fantastic. If the symbol comes in a smaller package or at a much later date, so be it. Getting hitched shouldn't be about material things.

 

[Varitek]

If a guy ever asks my parents for permission, they are going to say that he'll have to ask me.

 

[BVS]

If the symbol comes in a smaller package

Or maybe a smaller packaged make to look larger:

just look through the magnifying glass...

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

If a guy ever asks my parents for permission, they are going to say that he'll have to ask me.

I think that's perfect. If it's just a gesture of courtesy and respect these days rather than permission, well both parents should be asked and in a male/female scenario it should be mother and father-or else, at least for me, it gets into that paternalistic ownership type of thing. And if it's just respect well the woman should talk to his parents too because respect in relationships is supposed to be mutual, right?

If a guy can afford it and wants to buy an expensive ring for what I consider to be the right reasons that's nice. If in some alternate universe I married Manny Ramirez well I would expect a fantastic ring, cause that's just pocket change for him. But at a certain point for some people it might be about size in certain ways that have zero to do with the relationship, if you catch my drift

 

[BVS]

Ugh. This tradition squicks me out. I would defintely NOT want some guy asking my parents' permission to marry me. It's the 21st century and I'm an adult, not a child or a piece of property. I guess I can't see it as just "symbolic" like wearing white. There's lots of other ways to show respect to your prospective parents-in-law. Why not propose and then ask both sets of parents for their blessing rather than "permission"?

My ex-wife is as independent as they come, I called her father and asked for their blessing beforehand. She's very close to her father and I knew it would mean a lot to her father. So the night I asked her, in the midst of all the excitement, during dessert she all of a sudden got serious and with concern said, "you asked my father, right?" So it was obviously important to her as well...

I don't think anyone truly asks for permission these days.

 

[Irvine511]

his girlfriend is hardly a very superficial person that would demand such a thing, but, well, i dunno... somethings just are what they are.

according to my straight male friends, there seems to be an unspoken message whenever a woman might pooh-pooh an expensive ring -- "i'm saying it doesn't matter, but if you really loved me, i know you'd find a way to make it happen."

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

according to my straight male friends, there seems to be an unspoken message whenever a woman might pooh-pooh an expensive ring -- "i'm saying it doesn't matter, but if you really loved me, i know you'd find a way to make it happen."

Not for me, that's no sort of love test for me. Love includes realism, and paying the bills. Maybe that's just their interpretation for their own reasons, I don't know. How do they know that?

Trust me, it would have to be one huge ass spectacular ring for me to put up with Manny Ramirez. Seriously though,if I was marrying Manny it would be because I was truly in love with him and I would wear a bubble gum ring if that's what he gave me-with pride. As long as he ran to first on every hit rather than walking

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

according to my straight male friends, there seems to be an unspoken message whenever a woman might pooh-pooh an expensive ring -- "i'm saying it doesn't matter, but if you really loved me, i know you'd find a way to make it happen."

Now there's an unspoken message I personally would never give.

Maybe those women are of the mindset of "the engagement/wedding has to be a fairytale, which of course has to mean the marriage will be"

 

[Irvine511]

Maybe those women are of the mindset of "the engagement/wedding has to be a fairytale, which of course has to mean the marriage will be"

i think these women (of course not all) are in the mindset of precisely that.

 

[nathan1977]

On the subject of talking with her father/parents -- you're joining her family. You'd better make sure they want you.

On the subject of rings -- you know, I've just thought the woman who's going to be my wife deserves something nice, just for her. Yes, it was a financial sacrifice to buy her a beautiful ring, but is a sacrifice for the person you love really a sacrifice?

Some of the comments about rings on this board are surprisingly sexist.

 

[redhotswami]

On the subject of talking with her father/parents -- you're joining her family. You'd better make sure they want you.

why then isn't there the same expectation for the woman to ask the man's family?

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

i think these women (of course not all) are in the mindset of precisely that.

bingo.

http://www1.macys.com/search/result...drilldown&attrs=Department:PRODUCT_TYPE:Rings


that's from macy's... hardly tiffany's. cheepest ring listed as an engagement ring goes for $800 bucks, on sale.

for my own sake, when the time comes that i'm ready to get married, god willing my girlfriend (where/whom ever she is) will have the same attitude that you two have regarding the price of the ring it's self.

i'm not counting on it.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

On the subject of rings -- you know, I've just thought the woman who's going to be my wife deserves something nice, just for her. Yes, it was a financial sacrifice to buy her a beautiful ring, but is a sacrifice for the person you love really a sacrifice?

Some of the comments about rings on this board are surprisingly sexist.

care to identify which, exactly, you feel are the sexist comments?

 

[sulawesigirl4]

heck, my boyfriend and I both deposit all of our earnings into a joint account, so if there ever was any ring-buying to be done, it would be done with both our money. And I don't like wearing rings anyways. If I got one it would be a simple braided band. Rocks that stick up get snagged and you have to clean them and stuff. Too much hassle.

 

[namkcuR]

A lot of women waste so much time trying to plan the perfect wedding. Perhaps the divorce rate wouldn't be so high if people took all that time they used looking at wedding dresses, wedding cakes, venues, guestlists, music, decorations, etc etc etc, and used it to plan for their marriage instead.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

A lot of women waste so much time trying to plan the perfect wedding. Perhaps the divorce rate wouldn't be so high if people took all that time they used looking at wedding dresses, wedding cakes, venues, guestlists, music, decorations, etc etc etc, and used it to plan for their marriage instead.

how dare we think to challange the sanctity of marriage.

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

care to identify which, exactly, you feel are the sexist comments?

I'd like to know where those are myself. Unless of course one of mine was one of them. And I'm sorry, but there are tons of shallow women out there who feel that a measure of how much their man loves them is by what he spends on her ring. To me that's bullshit. You show a person how much you love them by respecting them and treating them right, among other things. All the rest is window dressing.

 

[Irvine511]

On the subject of talking with her father/parents -- you're joining her family. You'd better make sure they want you.

but it's not their decision, is it?




[q]On the subject of rings -- you know, I've just thought the woman who's going to be my wife deserves something nice, just for her. Yes, it was a financial sacrifice to buy her a beautiful ring, but is a sacrifice for the person you love really a sacrifice?[/q]

i bet many women hope their husbands think like this, and it's honestly the attitude i'd have as well. but take a look at my friend's story -- they have 2 kids, another on the way, and despite a 6 figure salary, there's no achievable down payment (got strollers and Subarus and carseats to pay for) in sight. what are they going to do?



[q]Some of the comments about rings on this board are surprisingly sexist. [/q]

agreed -- some women are surprisingly sexist.

i've been invited to bachelorette parties and i've heard women talking about how they are financially deceptive to their husbands. not a lot of money, just maybe they sneak/hide an extra $80 a month for manicures or whatever, and it's justified because he'd only notice if they stopped whatever beauty upkeep routine they've come to expect. and one girl explained to her friends that she convinced her husband that she *had* to get a mani and pedi every month. it was, you see, just like a haircut.

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

A lot of women waste so much time trying to plan the perfect wedding. Perhaps the divorce rate wouldn't be so high if people took all that time they used looking at wedding dresses, wedding cakes, venues, guestlists, music, decorations, etc etc etc, and used it to plan for their marriage instead.

If I ever get married (haha), I want a simple ceremony. I've been to a couple of gorgeous weddings, and if that's what they could afford and what they wanted, perfect, but to me it's all hype.

Well, not hype, per se, it's a day to share with family and friends and all that good stuff, but again the whole practicality of what all that money could be going towards instead just screams out at me.

 

[redhotswami]

If I got one it would be a simple braided band. Rocks that stick up get snagged and you have to clean them and stuff. Too much hassle.

oh wow that is a lovely idea! i was just thinking a wood ring would be beautiful. like symbolic of the tree of life or something.

 

[UberBeaver]

I bought the ring, I was happy to do so, she likes the ring, that makes me happy, YAY! In the big picture, it's not that big of a deal.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

On the subject of talking with her father/parents -- you're joining her family. You'd better make sure they want you.

On the subject of rings -- you know, I've just thought the woman who's going to be my wife deserves something nice, just for her. Yes, it was a financial sacrifice to buy her a beautiful ring, but is a sacrifice for the person you love really a sacrifice?

Some of the comments about rings on this board are surprisingly sexist.

The woman is joining his family too, so she'd better make sure they want her too.

Which ones do you feel are sexist and why? And there's no need for you (or anyone) to feel apologetic about a ring. If you see it that way that's wonderful. Just personally I wouldn't want anyone to feel pressured to go into financial crisis for a ring for me. For me it's far more important that he could be honest with me about the situation and that our relationship goes way beyond a huge expensive ring. If he insisted and was offended, well I suppose I might go along but I would still feel guilty and uncomfortable. If he's loaded well maybe it's not as much of an issue

I have diamonds I have inherited, and they have meaning to me because of who owned them. And I have fake ones and other real jewelry I have bought myself, and they have meaning to me because I bought them and picked them out and I think they're pretty.

 

[yolland]

A lot of women waste so much time trying to plan the perfect wedding. Perhaps the divorce rate wouldn't be so high if people took all that time they used looking at wedding dresses, wedding cakes, venues, guestlists, music, decorations, etc etc etc, and used it to plan for their marriage instead.

I've known couples who had casual backyard ceremonies followed by potluck whose marriages fell apart after 18 months, and couples who had huge elaborate ceremonies and receptions who are still happily married after 15 years. And vice versa. I don't think how much time and money they spend on that is a reliable predictor of anything. Of course you shouldn't spend money you don't have, but then lots of married couples (and single people) do that all the time on all kinds of things...bigger house than they need, pricier car(s) than they need, "home entertainment" equipment they don't need, etc.

And who says the woman has to do all the planning? Our wedding was a fairly modest one because we didn't have much money, but we did all our own invitations (software package), designed most of the flowers ourselves (found a freelance florist who took us along to the wholesale flower market and was happy to do customized arrangements), composed much of the actual ceremony ourselves, and worked on the song list with some musician friends who played our reception for reduced price, all of it together. It was fun and we still enjoy reminiscing about it 10 years later. The whole idea of doing it publically is to share your joy with your friends and family and thank them for extending their support and blessings, and you might as well thank them in style to the extent that you can reasonably afford.

There wasn't any engagement ring (and frankly, I can only think of one couple among our closest friends who had one) because we already knew there'd be wedding rings anyway and that seemed sufficient. Honestly I'm skeptical that there are that many women who couldn't be convinced that while it's an appealing idea, this money could be better spent on things we'll need once we get married, but maybe for some it's difficult to have a heart-to-heart about something like that before a formal proposal has been made. Or maybe it's just the people I know.

 

[nathan1977]

but it's not their decision, is it?

Have you ever seen a wedding or a marriage where the in-laws thought it was a bad union? Yikes.

take a look at my friend's story -- they have 2 kids, another on the way, and despite a 6 figure salary, there's no achievable down payment (got strollers and Subarus and carseats to pay for) in sight. what are they going to do?

My wife and I have one kid and another on the way, have a reasonable middle class salary, and there's no way we can afford a house either. The thousand dollars I paid for my wife's diamond isn't going to change that. Unless your friends spent well over a hundred grand on a wedding (we did ours for $10K six years ago), there's no reason to assume that the cost of a wedding day would afford them a downpayment in this market.

And my wife has never complained about gifts that are tokens of my love for her. That ring says an awful lot.

As a wedding planner, my wife has done lots of weddings for under $10K -- which is half of the average median wedding price of $20K. (And we know people who have spent much, much more on that.) I do agree somewhat with Ruckman's thought that some people spend far too much time and $$$ on the day as opposed to the lifetime together -- but on the other hand, there are very few days in your life where your friends gather around you and pledge their support, and if a woman wants that day to feel as special as possible, I am a firm believer in that.

I have far more issues with the amount of money the average teenager spends on prom, for goodness' sake. If I were the parent of a teenage girl, I would take the $1,500 that an average prom night costs (dress, jewelery, ticket, limo, hair, makeup) and put it into a high-yield CD instead.

And let's not even get started on the Sweet 16 thing.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Does anyone remember that insane pink diamond that Ben Affleck gave JLo that supposedly cost well over a million dollars? That is nuts, even in relation to what he makes and is worth. And what happened to that relationship? People in Hollywood are competitive over that sort of thing, and for some regular folks I do believe that weirdness and lack of realistic perspective has trickled down. Like I said-some, and others still have it in the proper perspective. Well what I consider to be proper.

 

[Liesje]

Phil talked to my parents before we got engaged. You'd have to ask him how it went. Honestly, I was quite surprised. I guess I grew up assuming that it was a totally out-dated and unnecessary tradition. I'm not sorry he did it, but he sure didn't have to.

Personally I can't stand a lot of the traditions surrounding engagement and marriage. Phil got me a simple ring with a blue sapphire, my birthstone and favorite color. I do not wear diamonds b/c I think they are insanely over-priced and over-valued, plus I won't take ANY chance of wearing a conflict diamond on my body. I would have been fine with no ring at all, but I think Phil is more traditional and it was exciting for him to pick it out and give it to me. We never even thought about wedding rings until a few days before our wedding my dad and I were at Kohl's and the jewelry was on sale. My dad said he'd buy our rings as my parents gift, so I picked them out and they were about $100 together. Mine is just a thin white gold band and Phil already lost his. Don't even get me started on our actual wedding....

 

[Vincent Vega]

On the subject of talking with her father/parents -- you're joining her family. You'd better make sure they want you.

My view is different here.


Yes, I'm "joining" the family, but that's just something that comes with being married.
Still, it's the decision of two grown up, independent people, not of the parents.

But of course I would prefer her parents to like me, and accept me.

It's not only some women that expect you to buy them something special, but also the people around you.
For example in the case with the lawyer, people people have some expectations of how expensive the ring ought to be. If it wasn't he kind of would "lose face".

I don't agree with that, like I wouldn't agree for myself with the (symbolic) question, but I'm sure others rather defer than going with a ring they really could afford.

 

[Irvine511]

Have you ever seen a wedding or a marriage where the in-laws thought it was a bad union? Yikes.

but is asking them before you pop the question going to change anything if they don't already like you?

and, yes, i do know people who are married when none of the parents, nor their friends, seemed to think it was a very good idea. and it's a bummer.



[q]My wife and I have one kid and another on the way, have a reasonable middle class salary, and there's no way we can afford a house either. The thousand dollars I paid for my wife's diamond isn't going to change that. Unless your friends spent well over a hundred grand on a wedding (we did ours for $10K six years ago), there's no reason to assume that the cost of a wedding day would afford them a downpayment in this market.[/q]


my friend, i think, paid more in the neighborhood of many thousands of dollars for the ring, but this was a girl who was raised to think that her wedding night was the culmination of her womanhood, so every detail had to be perfect (and, quite honestly, their wedding was gorgeous -- held in an art museum in downtown Baltimore the weekend before Christmas, and somehow, it managed to snow that night). no idea what it cost, but i'm guessing well above $20K. the point is that the $8K or whatever that he spent on the ring, on top of having to pay for rent ($2K a month) and now carseats and cribs has made a house in the nearby MD suburbs pretty much impossible, and he makes a solid $150K a year. which, i admit, is only middle class for urban coastal america, but still.

I have far more issues with the amount of money the average teenager spends on prom, for goodness' sake. If I were the parent of a teenage girl, I would take the $1,500 that an average prom night costs (dress, jewelery, ticket, limo, hair, makeup) and put it into a high-yield CD instead.

while i wholeheartedly agree, doesn't this beg the question -- what if your teenage daughter wants this day to feel as special as possible, after all, all of her friends are going to be going off to college, and this is the last big night out with them all ... why should money be any sort of object?

 

[Liesje]

while i wholeheartedly agree, doesn't this beg the question -- what if your teenage daughter wants this day to feel as special as possible, after all, all of her friends are going to be going off to college, and this is the last big night out with them all ... why should money be any sort of object?

Doesn't the question begging the question beg the question? Why SHOULD money be any sort of object? I went to my Sr. Banquet (we didn't have "prom"), bought a dress (that I actually did like) for $50, did my own make-up, my friends mom did our hair, yadda yadda. Would I have had more fun if I'd paid 10 times as much for my dress? Um, no! If you fell you need to drop $1000 on your prom to have fun and fit in then maybe those aren't the right kind of friends to have in the first place. We actually thought prom was rather lame so we went on a weeklong camping trip, the total cost of which was still probably less than what a lot of girls in my class paid for their prom dress. Those friends I went camping with, they are all still my best friends even though we live in different cities and countries now. Money never had anything to do with the quality of my experiences with my friends or husband. I have found that such expectations only lead to disappointment over things that don't matter in the first place.