It happened AGAIN

[ThatGuy]

I must still be asleep.

Once again, I encourage you to actually read what I've written. I have given you perhaps more respect than you deserve by reading what you've written and then responding to it. Yes, even your argument about hate crimes. YOu, on the other hand, have not shown me the same courtesy.

 

[Klaus]

BluberryPoptart:
I agree with you 100% that actions like blowing up people and dancing and cheering about that is unjustifiable.
On the other hand i think it's understandable that some people act like that. Maybe you'd understand that too if you try to imagine how you'd feel if the same things would have hapened in the US to your friends.

And I'm verry interested if you think that the "Colaterale Damage" because of the use of cluster bombs or sexual abuse and the Torture in prisons are justifiable and understandable?

And again i have the same to say.
I can understand that some people prefere revenge over justice but acting like that is not justifiable.

We planted several demon seeds what we see now is the first spark which might lead to a fire

 

[Scarletwine]

I must still be asleep.

Once again, I encourage you to actually read what I've written. I have given you perhaps more respect than you deserve by reading what you've written and then responding to it. Yes, even your argument about hate crimes. YOu, on the other hand, have not shown me the same courtesy.

By the way those killed were hired by the military and are and extension of them. They are armed and are called private contractors or mercenaries is a better word.

OF COUSE this doesn't excuse or condone the acts of the Iraqi's.

 

[Zoorock Girl!]

i try and stay out of this forum, and i don't have the biggest support for this war in iraq, but if we see them celebrating after killing our guys, why don't we fucking bomb the fuck out of them? we just kinda sit there, why not drop a few bombs on these guys, they're obviously not the ones that want to help us build a new iraq (and we need all the help we can get). sorry, but this story (i was gonna post it) really pisses me off.

Well, I guess I can't argue with that logic.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

And again i have the same to say.
I can understand that some people prefere revenge over justice but acting like that is not justifiable.

We planted several demon seeds what we see now is the first spark which might lead to a fire

Excuse me? Demon seed? This didn't begin with our invasion of Iraq. This treatment of Americans, westerners, and Jews has been going on all over the world for a long time. If anyone has any 'revenge' to dish out, we owe THEM quite a bit, not that I think we should give it. I cannot abide or have any respect for their twisted logic.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

I must still be asleep.

Once again, I encourage you to actually read what I've written. I have given you perhaps more respect than you deserve by reading what you've written and then responding to it. Yes, even your argument about hate crimes. You, on the other hand, have not shown me the same courtesy.

I really don't know what you expect me to do but agree with you? I'm tired of arguing about it. I've already stated my case.

Well, I guess I can't argue with that logic.

Neither can I!

 

[ThatGuy]

I'm not asking you to agree with me. We appeared to be having a debate. I say "appeared" because while I was reading what you'd written and responding to it, you were either skimming or plainly ignoring what I'd written and then responding. You asked questions, I answered them, and you kept asking them, saying you wished someone would answer you. You misrepresented my arguments, put words in my mouth, and generally acted like you weren't reading what I had said, but then acted like no one was listening to you. Speaking for myself, I was reading what you were saying, and responding. That's how debate works. But apparently I wasn't saying things that you wanted to hear because only rarely did you address statements that I actually wrote, instead choosing to tell me to take my bleedding-heart garbage to Iraq where they were sure to shoot me on site. That's not how debate works. I encourage you to start reading our conversation from the beginning, and you'll see that I'm plainly talking to you while you're plainly talking to yourself.

Whatever, though. You haven't read anything I've said thusfar. Why should it be different now?

 

[BluberryPoptart]

I have read it, but you keep pushing the same position in different ways and I still haven't changed my mind. I'm sorry if I haven't debated you the right way, I wasn't on the debate team at school, I didn't know there were rules for responding here

 

[ThatGuy]

There's no rules, don't be silly. I'd just ask that you at least reference what I've written so that I know that you've read it. Honestly, in many posts it seemed like you weren't reading them at all. If you raised an issue, I'd answer it with my opinion. Then you'd go into your next post with the same issue without ever trying to refute me, or with any other reference to the post I'd made in response. I know that I was essentially saying the same thing, but that's only because it didn't seem like you were listening. Not that I want you to agree with me, but at least tell me why I'm wrong in what I'm saying. That's debate, no rule book necessary.

 

[Klaus]

BluberryPoptart:
I didn't say it began with Mr. G.W. Bush or with the last Iraq war i just said that we (the western world) started the agressions.
You can look at the history of UKs colonial experiments down there, at the support of the Shah and later at the decision of Mr. Reagan who supported Mr. Hussein as a counterpart to Ayatollah Komeni, later we betrayed the people in the Iraq war who assisted the US and of course this time we did again several things which are help to let us look like pure evil.

 

[Klaus]

Results of a poll, requested by the Coalition Provisional Authority last month published in the NYTimes

The coalition's confidence rating in May stood at 11 percent, down from 47 percent in November, while coalition forces had just 10 percent support. 92% of the Iraqis said they considered coalition troops occupiers, while just 2% called them liberators.

Frustration over security was made worse this spring by revelations of sexual and physical abuse of Iraqis by U.S. guards at the Abu Ghraib prison.

The poll, taken in mid-May shortly after the controversy began, found 71 percent of Iraqis said they were surprised by the humiliating photos and tales of abuse at the hands of Americans, but 54 percent said they believed all Americans behave like the guards.

Of course the US government decided not to publish the new data because tey don't fit into their politics

 

[verte76]

To me the really frustrating thing is that the people could send a stronger message with peaceful demonstrations against the Coalition. A portion of the population is locked into a "revenge" mentality. I wonder if some of this is going on also and isn't being reported by the news media? It doesn't create fireworks the way the killings do.

 

[U2Kitten]

To me the really frustrating thing is that the people could send a stronger message with peaceful demonstrations against the Coalition. A portion of the population is locked into a "revenge" mentality.

That's it, Verte. To me, because of these actions they aren't coming off as very sympathetic victims, except to some other Arabs, and the Bush bashers and US bashers. Acting worse than the people you claim are picking on you is not the way to make the world feel sorry for you. In the NFL, when a guy takes a cheap shot on another player, and the offended player gets mad and does something worse back, they both get penalized, and most of the time only the one who retaliated even gets caught! A lot of times I'll see a guy get hit, then throw up his hands as if to say "you see what he did? But see my hands, I didn't touch him" In that case, the aggressor gets the penalty. The revenge mentality, the extremism, the violent random attacks only make it look like America was right, these guys are crazy terrorists who need to be stopped.

I wonder if some of this is going on also and isn't being reported by the news media? It doesn't create fireworks the way the killings do.

Well, I hope so

 

[Klaus]

I remember when we were young and tried to contact the media the first time when we protested against the government.
Well they informed us that they won't send reporters as long as we are not willing to throw stones

The media prefers to sell sensations or dreams, it's not their most important job to inform us unbiased.
Why? I guess the majority prefers to see that

btw according to several news-stations (incl. the NY Times )
Rummy ordered at least one time that a prisinor should be a "Ghost detainee" Maj Gen Antonio Taguba,
US army investigator calls them "deceptive, contrary to army doctrine, and in violation of international law"

Why? No prisionor number -> no IRC who asks about them.
Legal? No a violation of international laws (genova conventions) but if you look at the administration they decided that the President and his folowers are above the US-Law and above international laws. Maybe they ask theirself who needs laws anyway when he's fighting on god's side

 

[verte76]

Valid points, Klaus. I think Rumsfeld in particular has screwed up *big time* and that no one is above the law. That's not really what I'm trying to say--maybe this medicine is screwing up my head. I'm saying this stuff should be protested, but not like this. They should put away the bombs and the guns, and make signs and pick them up and walk through the streets. This is how Gandhi and Co. kicked the Brits out of India. I know some Iraqis are looking at 1920 and trying to duplicate that, but even Sistani thinks that's a mistake because the Shias just threw away alot of potential political power at that point. This whole situation is so damn scary.

 

[ThatGuy]

Well Bush did say the other day that we were rebuilding a 5,000 year old society. Maybe he meant that meant that the Code of Hammurabi was law again.

But yes, peaceful protest is definitely the answer. As we've learned from so many other conflicts, violence only begets violence, and that cycle will continue indefintely. Unfortunately I don't see any Ghandis coming out of Iraq.

 

[Scarletwine]

I don't think the peaceful protests that have been held so far (they are shown on other stations, not just the big 4 in the US) have proven fruitful in anyway. As Brahimi stated when he resigned, Bremer is the new Dictator of Iraq, and so nothing goes unless he approves it. And he gets his orders form Rummy. If the Iraqi's opinions mean nothing it becomes more and more violent as frustration grows. Also the rising civilian deaths, security concerns, unlawful detentions, and torture or mishandling of people for questioning grows, violence is their only outlet.

I just watched an Australian documentary and they had soldiers storming into peoples homes in the middle of the night and arresting and beating the men without even a translator to tell them what they wanted.

You sow what you reap and we've reaped a whirlwind.

 

[Klaus]

I've heared about peaceful protests months months ago.
Well the Iraqis said it was peaceful and the ocupying forces shot at them - but of course there is no way for me to find out if that was true or not.
Anyway i think it wouldn't have bin mentioned in the press if there was no response with guns.
So who knows how many iraqis are protesting since media thinks its too boring for us to watch on tv

 

[verte76]

Yeah, it was reported here that U.S. troops opened fire on some people in Iraq. The idiots. We've made so many mistakes in Iraq it's insane. The whole thing is really pissing me off.

 

[U2Kitten]

I don't believe that. Why would they fire on peaceful protesters and not the people who did the SUV murders and things like that. Some of you are convinced our government and the media are all lying, ever consider the Iraqis might lie sometimes too? Hello? Remember the 'baby milk factory' back in '91?

 

[ThatGuy]

Well in the past the American media has captured some of it on film, but you're right the Iraqis may be lying. Klaus referenced this point above when he said

Well the Iraqis said it was peaceful and the ocupying forces shot at them - but of course there is no way for me to find out if that was true or not.

I assume he meant the truth of whether or not is was actually peaceful. We all have to keep an open mind about the reports that come out of Iraq.

 

[verte76]

The Iraqis could indeed be lying. I certainly won't rule that out.

 

[joyfulgirl]

I just watched an Australian documentary and they had soldiers storming into peoples homes in the middle of the night and arresting and beating the men without even a translator to tell them what they wanted.

You sow what you reap and we've reaped a whirlwind.

I know several people who have been to Iraq in the last 8 months and they all confirm this happens regularly.

 

[Klaus]

ThatGuy:
Thanks - yes of course i am not sure if these people were peaceful protestors.

 

[Dreadsox]

I know several people who have been to Iraq in the last 8 months and they all confirm this happens regularly.

It should have happnened more until they were disarmed.

 

[Scarletwine]

I don't believe that. Why would they fire on peaceful protesters and not the people who did the SUV murders and things like that. Some of you are convinced our government and the media are all lying, ever consider the Iraqis might lie sometimes too? Hello? Remember the 'baby milk factory' back in '91?

Because they do. I'm sorry but your being naive. Remeber under Bush 1 the Iraqi's dumping Kuwaiti newborns out of their incubators and letting them die on the floor. Total lies and the girl who went on tv was a member of the royal family in Kuwait.

I do think they lie also, but I've seen film of protestors being fired on.

 

[U2Kitten]

I'm not saying they never lie. I believe all politicians are liars. I'm not saying the media never lie. I don't trust them either. I'm saying the Iraqis are not above lying too.

I'm sick to death of seeing the Iraqis portrayed as poor perfect innocent victims. I'm tired of seeing everything they do, such as burning the bodies or chopping off the heads of people who had done nothing wrong somehow exonherated because someone from the US did this or that in a totally different scenario.

As for the video, where is it, on some obscure pro Iraqi radical website? I wouldn't believe that either unless there was an entire scene of at least a half hour leading up to it. It's easy to take a shot and say it's peaceful protesters being shot, but where is the proof and evidence? I'm cynical about this because of people I know personally. I know people who take things out of context, conveniently leave out what they did wrong to try to frame the other person up. They will do this telling stories and doctoring emails, so I'm sure editing a tape, or only broadcasting the part that suits their needs is out of the question. See, I'm very skeptical too, but I don't believe anybody is above doing something like that.

Above all, as always, two wrongs do not make a right.

 

[RockNRollDawgie]

I \Hello? Remember the 'baby milk factory' back in '91?

The "baby milk factory" was just what it appeared to be, a baby milk factory. It had no miltary value at all.
"Babies torn from incubators in hospitals".....another
bunch of propaganda. It never happened.
"Smart bombs" weren't that smart. Most of them missed their
targets.
Gulf War I was full of propaganda and mistruths.

 

[verte76]

I think that sometimes the U.S. politicians are lying, because they do it. Sometimes the Iraqis are lying, because they do too. It is hard for me to trust *anyone* with alot of power.

 

[U2Kitten]

The "baby milk factory" was just what it appeared to be, a baby milk factory. It had no miltary value at all.
"Babies torn from incubators in hospitals".....another
bunch of propaganda. It never happened.
"Smart bombs" weren't that smart. Most of them missed their
targets.
Gulf War I was full of propaganda and mistruths.

Ummm, I was watching that on TV, at one time I even had it on videotape. What I saw was from Iraqi TV, there were several middle eastern gentlemen mumbling over some debris, there was Arabic writing on the screen. One guy picks up a piece of debris, about 4 feet tall and wide, all ragged, with the words BABY MILK FACTORY painted on in black stencil. I laughed my ass off. Because:

Baby milk factories don't say 'baby milk factory.' Baby formula is made by larger companies, and that's not the only thing they make. The name of the company would be on the factory, not 'baby milk factory.' I think they chose that idea because they were trying to think of the thing that would have the most sympathy value, and I believe they totally made it up. There were lots of jokes about it in those days, I wasn't the only one who saw how fake it was.

If it really were a baby milk factory, would the writing be that small, just on that one piece of debris, and in black stencil and spraypaint?Wouldn't it be much larger, and in Arabic? Why English? That was propaganda for OUR benefit, to try to trick Americans who saw it. I wasn't fooled. I believe some people want to be fooled, because they hate our government so much they get off on seeing anything that makes it look bad. (lots of them post here!) This was ridiculous.