I'm sick of church

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AttnKleinkind

AttnKleinkind

The Fly
Joined
Jan 24, 2005
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181
I stopped going for a while, just because I wanted to stop wasting my time, but...I don't know, I feel like I'm giving up my search for God if I completely stop going.

Sigh.

And my parents think someone has been influencing me to not go to church. Um, excuse me, I can make my own decisions, and have you ever considered that maybe it's your horribly fake Christianity that turned me off a bit??

Fucking hell. I hate church. And not just because of my parents. I think I'd be so much happier if I didn't believe in God. But no matter how hard I try, I can't fucking find Him. I've studying the Bible, I've prayed, I've "given myself over to him" for years and years. But somehow, following God, doing what he wants me to do, makes me miserable. And so I threw all that away and I'm in a lesbian relationship with the girl of my dreams and I couldn't be happier. Except, the God question is still gnawing at me. The classic struggle between religion and homosexuality. But that's not even what this is about. Even before I started questioning my orientation, I was frustrated with God. Aren't I too young to be jaded? I feel so different from everyone else, no one seems to be asking the questions that I'm asking. And I'm so tired of not being able to find any answers.


...Well that turned out to be something completely different...I was only going to write a few lines, excuse the rant...
 
Your anguish is a human construct. You sound like you've not been free to explore the options we all should have.

I suggest you stop looking. Another human, as in your prents, the people at your church, they're not going to introduce you to god.
 
I don't see why homosexuality and God have to be at odds. You can believe in God and not believe the bible is his word. God doesn't hate homosexuals, many high ranking leaders in the church hate homosexuals. In the end, it is all about faith. Church can help some people but it is all about your own faith or lack thereof. Decide what YOU believe no matter what your parents or other people would think. If they can't respect your spiritual independence then maybe not going to church is the best thing. :shrug: Whatever you choose make sure it is your choice. If Christianity and its views on homosexuality bother you then there is the agnostic route.
 
Yes, as screwtape said, God and homosexuality do not have to oppose each other. It's all perception from what is written in the Bible. I'm with swami, God is love.
 
Well, so many points here that can be discussed,

First off, God’s existence is not dependant on our belief. (If you choose not to believe in gravity, does it cease to exist?)

There is a difference IMO between faith, belief, and trust in and obedience to God as opposed to “religion”.

Religion says “you must wear certain things, look a certain way, eat certain foods, avoid certain foods etc. God says “it is not what you put in your mouth that defiles a man…but what comes out of his mouth.”

Religion says “you have to change your ways first, conform to our ideas and meet our organizations criteria.” God says “come to me ALL who are heavy burdened”

Religion says “you have to earn your way in, or give to receive salvation”
God says “faith without works is dead, but it is impossible to please God without faith”
And “salvation is a free gift from God to ALL who willingly receive it”

God is not confined behind the walls of a church building, he’s here, he’s right there where you are, he’s in the front row of a U2 concert, he’s in the alley behind 7-11…..He is not bound by our limited human physicality. So finding him is the easy part………..
the challenge……..

What will you do with him?

Know the truth and the truth shall set you free. You say you’ve studied the Bible….the answers are in there. You don’t need a church to be able to find God, or to know the truth.

There is a life choice you have to make, and it’s yours to make.

Frankly, what some people try to pass off as being "church" makes ME "sick"

Don’t get me wrong, there is a place and a purpouse for a good church, and we all can use guidance and instruction and support from time to time.

Hope this helps at least a little (?) :shrug:
 
You think god would wanna be stuck in a building while he has thousands of miles of pure beauty to travel around in ?
 
I go to Church twice a year, mainly because I'm home for the holidays and it's to pacify my parents. Otherwise I have no desire whatsoever to attend and I think my faith is stronger now than it was years ago when I'd drag my ass over there every Sunday and sit in misery for an hour.
 
Sounds like you're going through exactly what I went through a few years ago. I found myself sitting there, in the second row of the sanctuary, service after service, where I'd always sat, with the same people I'd always sat with, hating it all. I was just going through the motions, miserably. I couldn't stand sitting there and being told that homosexuality was a sin. I'm bisexual and my brother is gay. Most of my friends (outside of the church) were far from straight, and I found it absolutely ridiculous that God would make us the way we are, and then tell us it's a sin.
And really, it goes deeper than that. Humans are sinners by nature. You can chalk it up to Original Sin or whatever, but I find it cruel and sadistic that we have a sinful nature and yet we're expected to strive to live as holy as we can. God gave us grace to save us from our sins, and isn't that supposed to be enough? Must we suffer in life for it too?
Despite the fact that I was happy with every part of the church experience (the friendships, the fellowship, the activities, the worship services) except for the condemnation part, I had to leave.

But months later, I finally figured it out in my head. I decided that it was okay for me to be ME and that God would still love me. My favourite bible verse has always been 2 Corinthians 12:9, and I've tried to apply it to my life: "But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me."
It's hard, and for all I know, I'm wrong, but I have to remind myself that God will still love me, despite my flaws, that I can by myself and that I don't have to strive endlessly to earn God's grace. Just remember, God is love, and guilt is not of God.
 
I really appreciate everyone's words here. :)

And I just want to ask something, and it may sound naive, or overly-simplistic...but I don't understand how seeing homosexuality as wrong can be a misinterpretation of the Bible. I mean, it's pretty clear, isn't it? It's not like it's just some religious leaders that are trying to be holier-than-thou and judgemental, and it's not just some crazy Old Testament rule (because there are lots) I mean, homosexuality being wrong is mentioned in the New Testament too. So...that's kind of why I can't reconcile them. Because I know God is love, and that's why it baffles me that homosexuality is wrong. But maybe I'm missing something?

I also want to clarify that when I was talking about finding God in church, that I wasn't trying to say that I was trying to find God through "religion" like ceremonies and in a building and whatnot. I know the difference between religion and faith, and sorry if that wasn't clear. What I meant by finding God through church was sort of...going to church to learn about him. Like, an intellectual search, to question what is said there, whether it lines up with other Biblical teaching, and just generally actively learning. I don't know if that's clear or not...I apologize that I'm not very articulate. What I mean to say is, I am absolutely convinced that God exists. There's just something deep inside me, that I cannot deny no matter how hard I try (and I have tried, believe me). So I'm just trying to figure out *why* I believe, whether it's rational to believe, or whether I've just been brain-washed at Sunday School. :wink:

So...I don't know if that makes any sense or not...I seem to just get lost in my thoughts to the point where I can't even express my confusion or questions. :huh:
 
I believe because I need to believe. When I was the most confused in my faith, I tried to not believe, I tried to convince myself I was agnostic, but that was really pointless. I knew which God I believed in, I just wasn't sure that He believed in me, if you know what I mean. Faith isn't something that can be turned off and on like a switch.
And I know exactly what you mean about being confused by homosexuality being condemned in the bible. It confuses/annoys me too, but in order to keep my sanity and my faith, I have to choose which parts of the Bible I want to take to heart. It's probably the last thing fundamentalists want people to do, but if I hadn't convinced myself it was okay for me to do so, I wouldn't be able to have any faith at all, and I'd be miserable. There are, after all, some pretty strange things in the bible, even in the New Testament. Like about how a woman's long hair is "her glory to God" (so don't you dare cut it) and how "a husband is head of his wife, just as Christ is head of the church" (so do what your husband says, dammit), and so on.
 
AttnKleinkind said:
I really appreciate everyone's words here. :)

And I just want to ask something, and it may sound naive, or overly-simplistic...but I don't understand how seeing homosexuality as wrong can be a misinterpretation of the Bible. I mean, it's pretty clear, isn't it? It's not like it's just some religious leaders that are trying to be holier-than-thou and judgemental, and it's not just some crazy Old Testament rule (because there are lots) I mean, homosexuality being wrong is mentioned in the New Testament too. So...that's kind of why I can't reconcile them. Because I know God is love, and that's why it baffles me that homosexuality is wrong. But maybe I'm missing something?

I also want to clarify that when I was talking about finding God in church, that I wasn't trying to say that I was trying to find God through "religion" like ceremonies and in a building and whatnot. I know the difference between religion and faith, and sorry if that wasn't clear. What I meant by finding God through church was sort of...going to church to learn about him. Like, an intellectual search, to question what is said there, whether it lines up with other Biblical teaching, and just generally actively learning. I don't know if that's clear or not...I apologize that I'm not very articulate. What I mean to say is, I am absolutely convinced that God exists. There's just something deep inside me, that I cannot deny no matter how hard I try (and I have tried, believe me). So I'm just trying to figure out *why* I believe, whether it's rational to believe, or whether I've just been brain-washed at Sunday School. :wink:

So...I don't know if that makes any sense or not...I seem to just get lost in my thoughts to the point where I can't even express my confusion or questions. :huh:
Click to expand...

You need to talk to Melon from Free Your Mind, who can tell you about the historical context in which those were presented in. I can also present you with a link.

http://forum.interference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=167550&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

The discussion leads to homosexuality as mentioned in the Bible.
 
AttnKleinkind said:
It's not like it's just some religious leaders that are trying to be holier-than-thou and judgemental, and it's not just some crazy Old Testament rule (because there are lots) I mean, homosexuality being wrong is mentioned in the New Testament too.
Click to expand...

Christianity isn't the only path to God.
 
AttnKleinkind said:
And I just want to ask something, and it may sound naive, or overly-simplistic...but I don't understand how seeing homosexuality as wrong can be a misinterpretation of the Bible. I mean, it's pretty clear, isn't it? It's not like it's just some religious leaders that are trying to be holier-than-thou and judgemental, and it's not just some crazy Old Testament rule (because there are lots) I mean, homosexuality being wrong is mentioned in the New Testament too. So...that's kind of why I can't reconcile them. Because I know God is love, and that's why it baffles me that homosexuality is wrong. But maybe I'm missing something?
Click to expand...

phillyfan26 said:
You need to talk to Melon from Free Your Mind, who can tell you about the historical context in which those were presented in. I can also present you with a link.

http://forum.interference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=167550&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

The discussion leads to homosexuality as mentioned in the Bible.
Click to expand...

Yes, I (Melon) have plenty of opinions on this subject. And I've argued it nearly incessantly for six years in FYM.

In short, all those "condemnations" are the result of poor translation practices, both in the Old and New Testaments. Archaic ancient concepts with no modern equivalents were all painted with the "homosexual" brush--even though "homosexuality," as a concept, did not exist until Germany in the 1870s.

"Melon" has been in semi-retirement lately, because, for some reason, I think that my 10,000th post should be something "important." But I think this is probably an important enough issue that I think I shall put my 10,000th post to good use and summarize everything I've said on this subject in one thread. And with an easy-to-use link, I won't have to feel like I'm repeating myself so much in FYM. :wink:

But I don't particularly have time for that right now. In the meantime, let me leave you with one passage:

"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,' and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law." - Romans 13:8-10

If there is one statement that describes Protestant Christianity, it is the doctrine that faith alone saves you. No actions, no works will do you any good, because we'll always be "sinners." But, perhaps unsurprisingly, in spite of that otherwise liberating doctrine, there are plenty of Christians awaiting to judge and condemn you solely on the basis of your actions. In other words, they want to have their cake (self-salvation) and be able to eat it (judging others) too. However, you don't have to try to please or answer to them.

"Love is the fulfillment of the law."
 
martha said:


Christianity isn't the only path to God.
Click to expand...

i like a lot of what is said here, but not that ^^

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light. No one gets to the Father except through me"

Now I have plenty of problems with the Christian church in general, but the Bible (where Christian doctrine is based) is the only "religion book" that teaches Jesus Christ.

While the church is for sure not the only path to God, the Bible is.

Oh, and you cannot pick and choose what you want from the Bible, it's all or nothing. (thought i'd add that in)
 
I'm not trying to be baiting or anything, but what other paths are you saying?

Jesus is God's Son, and He is the One True path.
 
AttnKleinkind said:

And so I threw all that away and I'm in a lesbian relationship with the girl of my dreams and I couldn't be happier. Except, the God question is still gnawing at me. The classic struggle between religion and homosexuality. But that's not even what this is about. Even before I started questioning my orientation, I was frustrated with God.
Click to expand...

I'm not religious, but I am a fellow dyke, so hello, sister, nice to see another queer U2 fan.

FWIW, Christianity never seemed to offer me anything more than alienation and judgement, so I left it behind a long time ago. That's not a slur on people who are Christians, just my experience based on many years of exposure.

I think one of the really great parts (and at the same time one of the really hard parts) about being queer is that there aren't any rules for how we should be, so we get to choose our own path, create our own families, write our own rules for how we live. This puts us at odds with the very many people in our lives who want us to follow their rules and live the kind of lives they want.

There's nothing wrong with the way you (and I) are, nothing broken or evil and let no one tell you otherwise.
 
AttnKleinkind said:
I really appreciate everyone's words here. :)

And I just want to ask something, and it may sound naive, or overly-simplistic...but I don't understand how seeing homosexuality as wrong can be a misinterpretation of the Bible. I mean, it's pretty clear, isn't it? It's not like it's just some religious leaders that are trying to be holier-than-thou and judgemental, and it's not just some crazy Old Testament rule (because there are lots) I mean, homosexuality being wrong is mentioned in the New Testament too. So...that's kind of why I can't reconcile them. Because I know God is love, and that's why it baffles me that homosexuality is wrong. But maybe I'm missing something?
Click to expand...

Let's not forget that men wrote the Christian Bible and every other religious tome out there. Fallible people with prejudices and fears the same as every other human being on the planet. They wouldn't be human if those things didn't come through in their writings.

And then there's the issue of the multiple translations, the 'approved' editions, etc etc.

But the main point I should make before I drop off the perch with tiredness cos it's headed for 2am down here, is that religion is not the only way to spirituality or to god. If you're living a real life with ethics and love and meaning, then you're already way ahead of a lot of so-called religious types.
 
nightninja56 said:


i like a lot of what is said here, but not that ^^

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light. No one gets to the Father except through me"

Now I have plenty of problems with the Christian church in general, but the Bible (where Christian doctrine is based) is the only "religion book" that teaches Jesus Christ.

While the church is for sure not the only path to God, the Bible is.

Oh, and you cannot pick and choose what you want from the Bible, it's all or nothing. (thought i'd add that in)
Click to expand...

Two things then:

1. God =/= Jesus Christ. Christians didn't actually invent the concept, you know. :)

2. Polyester and shellfish and Leviticus. If you don't get to pick and choose what you believe from the bible, then there's a lot of polyester-wearing Christian folk in for a hell of a shock, if that rapture they're waiting for actually comes about.

And yeah, I'm making light, but hell, read Leviticus some time and then try to take the rest of that book seriously.
 
nightninja56 said:
I'm not trying to be baiting or anything, but what other paths are you saying?

Jesus is God's Son, and He is the One True path.
Click to expand...


According to what texts you've placed your faith on.

My friend, simply quoting a piece of scripture to someone who doesn't have that same faith as you just comes across as meaningless. Now, your own interpretations and thoughts on the matter, not just something memorized, is what I'm interested in hearing.
 
martha said:


For Christians, yes.

But plenty of other people know God without being Christian.
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying.

But you can feel God, but that doesn't mean that you have a relationship with Him and are going to be with Him in Heaven after you die.

What I'm trying to say is, the "Christian" view of God, the One True God, has to be the only path.

The Koran contradicts the Bible sometimes, so one has to choose between the two. Moral truths can be found in the Koran, but the only way to truly go to Heaven and be with God, is found in the Bible. If there are multiple ways to get to God, then why would the Bible say the ONLY way?

And lastrega, yeah some stuff in the Old Testament seems crazy, but it is easy to see that for Christians, Old Testament truths are definitely figurative or even covered by 'revisions' in the New Testament. Christians don't kill hundreds of thousands of people on a daily basis, do they? (my bad, REAL Christians don't)

as to the polyester/shellfish type of stuff, it's almost a parable, like "God says to follow His Commands for your life, whether it's polyester, shellfish, or something else"

hope i'm making sense, trying to communicate what's in my head haha:wink:
 
All people can pray, and God definitely hears them. But He also wants them to read what He has sent to them. (that would be the Bible) I have seen no evidence to the fact that God doesn't want us to read the Bible.

Christianity is NOT the church, by the way. Christianity is a relationship with God. The church is messed up in so many ways, because they have missed this part.
 
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