I wasn't gonna post in here again but this is something I typed up. I am not addressing any comments made after my last post, that are inaccurate, but this overall feeling on this subject is summed up in this doc.
Pick a side?
May 24, 2004
This is a long document, it might have some errors, and I know it's rambling, but I typed it out as my thoughts came to me. It's not complete, but I wanted a doc that sums up most of my thoughts.
I am a taper. I don't own the most expensive mics, but I have made some decent recordings that are the best known source of several shows. I originally didn't like people converting to MP3, or remastering my shows, selling it, etc... I have gone off on folks that have done that in the past, but came to realize that if you share your recording, folks will do with it what they please. Right or wrong, it's the way it is. Someone will do something you don't like with the recording. Whether it is sold on eBay (the worst thing in my mind) or convert it to MP3, the thing I've come to realize is, once traded out, it's out of your hands.
Tapers do not own there tapes, if they let it out in anyway, they can no longer control it. If you want absolute control, do not let it out, or only trade to trusted friends who will not let it out past that.
If "rules" are spread with the recording, (in a text file, or directly from the taper) we should follow them. I have no issue with following what the taper asks. If no rules are given to me, from who I get the recording from, how can I determine who/what rules to follow? How can we know what a taper wished if he didn't include it in the text files or makes himself known? Many tapers wish to remain anonymous, so if, as a taper you wish to remain anonymous, and you trade out your shows as audio cd's only (no text file) it makes it difficult to know what YOU as the taper wanted (not someone wishing to keep your recording out of everyone else's hands). If no rules were included with the recording, who is to determine what is the "correct" way to trade said recording? Why is some ways of trading the "allowed" way and others as the "not allowed" way? What's funny if you do a search on Yahoo of "no public ftp server access", guess what band comes up as the "anti-server" band?
* See comments below. Those comments accounts for less than half a dozen shows and I have no problem with TAPERS that put those comments in their text files, and share there shows via snail mail. Good for them, to let them out, and let it be known what they want. But remember, unless you recorded it and let it be known how YOU want it shared, no one else has a right to say how it should be shared. Just because you don't like things a certain way, doesn't mean you should impose your views on everyone else.
This cracks me up as an example of some people trying to control what is not theirs:
1985-03-23
Detroit, MI.
Joe Louis Arena
Complete Show: Yes
Disc 1: (41:57)
Disc 2: (42:55)
*************DO NOT ENCODE TO MP3!**************
**********no public ftp server access***********
******only to be traded on a 1 for 1 basis******
History: WM-D6 master > Teac mic > DAT > CDR2 > SHN
Shn'd from CDR Copy by J. Pinto on 04.01.02
+++++ CUT OFF REST.
WM-D6 master > Teac mic > DAT > CDR2 > SHN means, the DAT got put on a CDR, then most likely traded to someone. So the taper put it on a CDR, then either copied it, or traded that CDR to someone, and then another copy was made, (Possibly traded again) and then SHN'd up. The taper would have no reason to make a second gen CDR copy then SHN it, so why should J. Pinto impose rules on us, when he is clearly not the taper? He might not even know the taper as he is 2 gens away. Here is another example of his rules:
U2: Cleveland, OH. Gund Arena. May 3, 2001.
------------------------------------------------
*************DO NOT ENCODE TO MP3!**************
**********no public ftp server access***********
******only to be traded on a 1 for 1 basis******
------------------------------------------------
Complete Show: Yes
Disc 1: (60:34)
Disc 2: (64:23)
Source: unknown ALD, audience
Shn'd from CDR Copy by J. Pinto on 23.10.01
CDR>EAC(secure)>WAV>MKW>SHN
+++++ CUT OFF REST.
This time he doesn't even know the history of the 2 source mix he is putting rules on. He EAC'd a CDR copy, and put some text rules in the file.
Last example:
Tour: Elevation
Date: 2001-08-08
Venue: Barcelona, Spain - Palau Sant Jordi
Name of Show: N/A
Taper: Javi Dieguez
Recording Location/Equipment:
Sec 124, Row 16, Seat 5 > OKMIIr > A3 > PCM-M1 > DAT master 44.1KHz
SHN Process:
DAT master > DTC-ZE700 > optical > ZA2 > CEpro+CDWave+MkwACT > SHN > CD-R (clone) > EAC > wav > mkw 0.96f > SHN
------------------------------------------------
*************DO NOT ENCODE TO MP3!**************
**********no public ftp server access***********
******only to be traded on a 1 for 1 basis******
------------------------------------------------
+++++ CUT OFF REST.
First off, I don't ever remember Javi having a issue with people hosting his recordings. But someone who got a Audio CD made from a SHN copy, then re-shn'd it (a no-no, when there is already a SHN circulating) and added the above comments. No wonder most folks don't care, it when the non-tapers try to impose their rules on folks, most people get bitter or sour at the idea of certain people trying to limit how they can trade.
Javi, or J Pinto, if you have anything to say, please email me at
chrisedge@yahoo.com
Most of us agree that the worst thing possible is when you see your recording for sale on eBay. Many people blame the rapid explosion of the P2P, FTP, Bit Torrent as the cause of all these shows for sale. Let me make this clear. Everything gets sold. Long before DVD's were shared over broadband, they were being sold over eBay and other places. Before you could download complete shows on CD, they were being produced by foreign companies (often hiring tapers to record the show to be sold) manufacturing silver CDs. The internet/broadband/etc.hasn't been the cause of people selling recordings; they have been doing it for years, before anyone downloaded anything. All that is changed is more people can get access to the shows (whether meeting folks over the internet, then snail mailing, or just downloading), then decide to sell it. The internet has also given us more access to places to sell, eBay, websites, paypal all help sellers with their goal of making a few bucks at the expense of the band, the tapers, and those foolish enough to buy the boots.
What the internet has helped is the networking of thousands of fans of different bands that are able to meet each other. There is nothing like meeting up with someone you have shared email with, or developing bonds with folks who share your love of the same music. I have met (some in person, some over email) some truly special folks who just want to share their love of certain bands and spend lots of time to help others with their hobbies of collecting live music. What?s great is some of my friends, don?t even trade with me anymore, we just send each other great discs and don?t worry about what each other ?owes? each other.
"The Instant Access, I Want It Now" Complaint. I agree with this one, across all boards and traders. I find it funny that some folks accuse downloaders as the culprits of this. It used to be a "3 week rule". You can't ask for a show until 3 weeks after the show was over. Now I see folks before the show has even happened asking about anyone that plans on taping it. Note this is snail mail traders, downloaders, everyone. We have come to expect most shows getting taped, and people aren't afraid to ask for what they want. Do I need every show of a particular show of a tour? Nope, Do I need last nights show today? Nope. But as a collector, I usually decide on what I want, and will try and get them. Now if I was at last nights show, I might want that a bit quicker, or if someone got a great sounding show and it is a really good recording, I might want that a bit faster but most folks want what they want a little too quickly. It's part of our "MTV" generation. That goes for all traders, no matter how you trade.
I've got no issues with people that want to keep their stuff rare. Gets them access to other rare stuff, and allows them to "fish out" other stuff that might be hiding under the radar. Heck, I've got stuff that I know other people would really like to see, and I've taped quite a few shows that I have not transferred yet (not really hording, but laziness). My problem is when people are "proud" to be hoarders or they post in public forums about what great stuff they have, but are only looking for other "rare" stuff. I usually think of that as elitism, or flame-bait, or just plain bragging. Most of us that have been doing this a while, have our connections for the stuff that is not on everyone's list. We know who can get us other rare stuff and posting on a open forum is not usually the place to do it. It just shows everyone which side of the fence you sit on. Pro-Downloading / Anti-Downloading.
Most folks have picked their side by now. Either you?re into snail mail or you?re into downloading (and with downloading, some like to upload
). Why must the snail mailers try and impose their thoughts and rules on the downloaders? (It's never the other way around) I did a pretty big trade last U2 tour when I got something "rare" that I wasn't going to host via downloading. I took about 20 plus trades via snail mail and still got shit about it, because I was spreading a show too rapidly. WTF? I guess I should sit on everything and take only 1 trade a week/month/year to please some folks. Why is it that the folks in the snail mail camp think they have the right to say how I should trade something? I don't have a problem if it's the known taper or even if it's traded to me with rules, but if I get something in a regular old fashion snail mail trade is it my responsibility to track down the taper, and see if it's ok to trade? Or Host? Or Giveaway? Remember, the taper let it out and no longer controls it.
Many snail mailers bring up the fact that "Tapers have already begun not releasing shows because of the servers". Tapers have horded their own shows long before FTP/Servers/Downloading and will continue to hoard shows. On Scott Zumsteg's great website, he even mentions Led Zeppelin tapers doing this back in the 1970's, releasing partial tapes (we haven't seen that before, have we?) and then hoarding the complete tape for better trade bait. Some tapers will release their shows, some won't. It has happened for years and will continue to happen. Please don't use that excuse as a reason why downloading shouldn?t happen. Some people want to keep things within their control and keep that recording from surfacing. It's the same as it has been for years, and will always be an issue, downloading or not. If a recording plays in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it exist?
-Chrisedge