Bush - Bad for America

[deep]

Poll: In wake of Iraq war, allies prefer China to U.S.

America's rating was lowest in Turkey, Pakistan and Jordan

Thursday, June 23, 2005; Posted: 5:46 p.m. EDT (21:46 GMT)

Anti-war protest on war anniversary
The Iraq war and wariness about U.S. foreign policy caused a slip in world opinion, an international poll says.


WASHINGTON (AP) -- The United States' image is so tattered overseas two years after the Iraq invasion that communist China is viewed more favorably than the U.S. in many long-time Western European allies, an international poll has found.

The poor image persists even though the Bush administration has been promoting freedom and democracy throughout the world in recent months -- which many viewed favorably -- and has sent hundreds of millions of dollars in relief aid to Indian Ocean nations hit by the devastating December 26 tsunami.

"It's amazing when you see the European public rating the United States so poorly, especially in comparison with China," said Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, which surveyed public opinion in 16 countries, including the United States.

In Britain, almost two-thirds of Britons, 65 percent, saw China favorably, compared with 55 percent who held a positive view of the United States.

In France, 58 percent had an upbeat view of China, compared with 43 percent who felt that way about the U.S. The results were nearly the same in Spain and the Netherlands.

The United States' favorability rating was lowest among three Muslim nations which are also U.S. allies -- Turkey, Pakistan and Jordan -- where only about one-fifth of those polled viewed the U.S. in a positive light.

Only India and Poland were more upbeat about the United States, while Canadians were just as likely to see China favorably as they were the U.S.

The poll found suspicion and wariness of the United States in many countries where people question the war in Iraq and are growing wary of the U.S.-led campaign against terrorism.

"The Iraq war has left an enduring impression on the minds of people around the world in ways that make them very suspicious of U.S. intentions and makes the effort to win hearts and minds far more difficult," said Shibley Telhami, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution.

The overseas image of the United States slipped sharply after the Iraq invasion in 2003, the Pew polling found, and it has not rebounded in Western European countries like Britain, France, Germany and Spain.

However the U.S. image has bounced back in Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim country which benefited from U.S. aid to tsunami victims, as well as in India and Russia.

Support for the U.S.-led war on terror has dipped in Western countries like Britain, France, Germany, Canada and Spain, while it remains low in the Muslim countries surveyed like Pakistan, Turkey and Jordan.

"The position of the United States as the one surviving superpower is to be assertive in responding in a world of terrorism. But in the rest of the world, there is a great wariness about that," said John Danforth, the former Republican senator from Missouri who also was U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. He is now a St. Louis attorney.

The poll found a positive reaction in European countries to President George W. Bush's campaign for more democracy in countries around the world. People in Muslim countries were wary of the U.S. campaign, but supportive of the idea of democracy in their own countries.

Danforth said the attitudes in the Mideast about democracy were a bright spot.

"We should keep plugging away on democracy," Danforth said. "But we need to do a better job of communicating what we're trying to do."

The survey found that a majority of people in most countries say the United States does not take the interests of other countries into account when making international policy decisions.

It also found most would like to see another country get as much military power as the United States, though few want China to play that role.

People in most countries were more inclined to say the war in Iraq has made the world a more dangerous place. Non-U.S. residents who had unfavorable views of the United States were most likely to cite Bush as the reason rather than a general problem with America.

The polls were taken in various countries from late April to the end of May with samples of about 1,000 in most countries, with more interviewees in India and China and slightly less than 1,000 in the European countries. The margin of sampling error ranged from 2 percentage points to 4 percentage points, depending on the sample size.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Quote: "WASHINGTON (AP) -- The United States' image is so tattered overseas two years after the Iraq invasion that communist China is viewed more favorably than the U.S. in many long-time Western European allies, an international poll has found.

The poor image persists even though the Bush administration has been promoting freedom and democracy throughout the world in recent months -- which many viewed favorably -- and has sent hundreds of millions of dollars in relief aid to Indian Ocean nations hit by the devastating December 26 tsunami.

"It's amazing when you see the European public rating the United States so poorly, especially in comparison with China," said Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, which surveyed public opinion in 16 countries, including the United States.

In Britain, almost two-thirds of Britons, 65 percent, saw China favorably, compared with 55 percent who held a positive view of the United States.

In France, 58 percent had an upbeat view of China, compared with 43 percent who felt that way about the U.S. The results were nearly the same in Spain and the Netherlands."

To me, this is absolutely outrageous - and idiotic. Does the US jail and execute its citizens simply for sharing their faith? Does the US jail and execute its people simply for speaking against the government?

 

[financeguy]

No way would I have a higher opinion of China than America.

 

[Judah]

Sign of the times, '80s...China hasn't invaded a country in the last two years based on dubious intelligence. People around the world feel lied to. Plus, support for the war (and how it's being handled by Bush's administration) has gone down in the U.S. also.

But, hey, it's still a little encouraging to see that many of the Moslem countries agree they need more democracy. That's why Iraq's success/failure will be so important.

 

[deep]

Does the US jail its people simply for speaking against the government?

the administration got the power to lock-up people
without charging them
for an undetermined time

 

[80sU2isBest]

Sign of the times, '80s...China hasn't invaded a country in the last two years based on dubious intelligence. People around the world feel lied to. Plus, support for the war (and how it's being handled by Bush's administration) has gone down in the U.S. also.

In other words, people are very fickle and/or don't know of the Horrors of China:

*The fore-mentioned jail and excecution of people who share their faith
*The fore-mention jail and execution of government dissidents
*The horrendous treatment of women

 

[80sU2isBest]

the administration got the power to lock-up people
without charging them
for an undetermined time

Whether that's the case or not, the truth stanbds:

They US doesn't lock up people simply for being dissidents.

 

[deep]

how do you know that?



they gave themselves power to disappear people

all the checks and balances -
and human rights standards that defined America for decades

has been thrown out the window on the phony pretense of the 'war on terror"

you and your clique in Texas may not care or believe it does not effect you


But, the world is watching and any time a nation sets itself above "laws and conventions" it is right that their standing in the world suffer

this is what this administration has done
to the image of a great country with a history of being the standard bearer.
It is a shame!

 

[80sU2isBest]

how do you know that?


this is what this administration has done
to the image of a great country with a history of being the standard bearer.

It is a shame!

How do you know it does happen? Can you give me a name of someone who was jailed and or executed by this administration simply for being a dissident? I'm not talking about a violent dissident - I am talking about someone who just spoke against the government.

If you'd like I can come up with many sources of info detailing the crimes against humanity by China.

If you agree with these people who think China is better than the US, that's What I call a shame!

As a side note, do you remember Ruby Ridge, or David Koresh, or the illegal armed-entrance and kidnapping at gunpoint of Elian Gonzales?

If I recall correctly, and I do, every single one of these was carried out by the Clinton administration. I'm not sure there's much room for a Democrat to be talking about a Republican administration being a "bully" or "denying people's rights".

 

[deep]

Quote:

To me, this is absolutely outrageous - and idiotic. Does the US jail and execute its citizens simply for sharing their faith? Does the US jail and execute its people simply for speaking against the government?

perhaps it is because China is making reforms in the right direction

and the Bush Administration is going the other way

but, if your standard is:

“hey, we are not as bad as Communist China" which is true.
then, you and I have vastly different expectations from our Government.

 

[deep]

not that there's much room for a Democrat to be talking about a Republican administration being a "bully" or "denying people's rights".

I am now and have been for over thirty years a registered Republican.

 

[80sU2isBest]

perhaps it is because China is making reforms in the right direction

and the Bush Administration is going the other way

but, if your standard is:

“hey, we are not as bad as Communist China" which is true.
then, you and I have vastly different expectations from our Government.

Noi, that's not my standard. But China is one of the worst denyer of human rights, and America doesn't even come close.

By the way, what DID you think about Ruby Ridge and the Waco Incident and The Elian Gonzales fiasco?

 

[deep]

By the way, what DID you think about Ruby Ridge and the Waco Incident and The Elian Gonzales fiasco?

look at your watch - it's 2005



I think the important thing is it's not the facility of Guantanamo, it's the adjudication of the cases of the prisoners who have been held there without trial or without any adjudication of their cases. So the frustration is not the fact we have a facility at Guantanamo, although that certainly becomes symbolic. The frustration is: What are we going to do with these people? Now, I know that some of these guys are terrible, terrible killers and the worst kind of scum of humanity. But, one, they deserve to have some adjudication of their cases. And there's a fear that if you release them that they'll go back and fight again against us. And that may have already happened. But balance that against what it's doing to our reputation throughout the world and whether it's enhancing recruiting for people to join al-Qaeda and other organizations and want to do bad things to the United States of America. I think, on balance, the argument has got to be--the weight of evidence has got to be that we've got to adjudicate these people's cases, and that means that if it means releasing some of them, you'll have to release them. Look, even Adolf Eichmann got a trial. I mean, there--we are signatories to numerous agreements on human rights, against torture, universal declaration on human rights, etc. So that means we have to do something with these people.

 

[shart1780]

China is a Hell hole. I know women who've lived there almost their whole life. They said the governmant there is horrible. They say the US is infinitely more comfortable and accepting of their faith and their freedom.

And you forgot to mention China's forced abortions!

 

[deep]

so your standard is:

“hey, we are not as bad as Communist China" which is true.

you and I have vastly different expectations from our Government.

 

[shart1780]

America isn't perfect, and you're right, there is alot of things that need to be changed.

The problem is that the poll info you posted was taken from an incredibly corrupted country, much more corrupted than America.

 

[financeguy]

America isn't perfect, and you're right, there is alot of things that need to be changed.

The problem is that the poll info you posted was taken from an incredibly corrupted country, much more corrupted than America.

We shall see if you have changed your view when the rest of the Abu Ghraib photos are publicised.

Watch this space, shart1780, watch this space.

 

[80sU2isBest]

so your standard is:

“hey, we are not as bad as Communist China" which is true.

you and I have vastly different expectations from our Government.

Deep, was this article about some people saying China is better than the US or not?

I was giving my opinion of the article, plain and simple.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I am now and have been for over thirty years a registered Republican.

Ah, you got me there; though I am curious - in what ways do your views line up with Republicans?

 

[80sU2isBest]

We shall see if you have changed your view when the rest of the Abu Ghraib photos are publicised.

Watch this space, shart1780, watch this space.

fg, so what you're saying is that abuse heaped upon terrorists by soldiers at a prison is worse than executing dissidents and Christians,and the mistreatment of women,including forced abortions?

 

[financeguy]

fg, so what you're saying is that abuse heaped upon terrorists by soldiers at a prison is worse than executing dissidents and Christians,and the mistreatment of women,including forced abortions?

No, I am saying that child rape and murders of women which seemingly went on at Abu Ghraib is worse or as bad as executing dissidents and Christians.

That is what I am saying.

Please do not misintrepret my comments.

 

[trevster2k]

perhaps it is because China is making reforms in the right direction

and the Bush Administration is going the other way

but, if your standard is:

“hey, we are not as bad as Communist China" which is true.
then, you and I have vastly different expectations from our Government.

I agree with you here deep. China is still a nation with huge civil rights problems along with social problems but they had isolated themselves from the world for hundreds of years, were promptly exploited by the British Empire and then invaded by Japan, only to regress to a communist sheltered society which is a billion strong with a homogenous society. I'm not making excuses for China but it is a nation heading in the right direction especially compared to their recent past. China ain't no North Korea.

The United States has a rich democratic past, with a civil war, but they have been openly involved in the world through trade and commerce for centuries. Freedom has been an enduring message from America. But this administration has taken the US in a direction which is backwards and regressive. The Patriot Act, the President being given the power to declare war without approval from Congress, the Iraq war, Gitmo, capital punishment, numerous civilian deaths and military mistakes leading to innocent deaths. This all leads to many people feeling that the US seems to have lost its way in the world. We have an expectation of the US, and the Bush administration is not living up to it thus the kind of results seen in this poll.

No one is writing off America. Polls are bullshit half the time anyway but I am pretty sure America will regain its stature in the world in the near future.

 

[melon]

In other words, people are very fickle and/or don't know of the Horrors of China:

*The fore-mentioned jail and excecution of people who share their faith
*The fore-mention jail and execution of government dissidents
*The horrendous treatment of women

Sounds like Saudi Arabia.

Melon

 

[80sU2isBest]

look at your watch - it's 2005

Answer my question.

when Clinton's feds stormed the Koresh compound, Guns-a-blazing, did you speak against it?

How about Ruby Ridge - when Clinton's feds shot 13 year old Sammy Weaver in the back and unarmed Vicky Weaver in the head, killing them both?

Or how about when Clinton's Feds stormtrooped the house of Elian Gonzales on Easter Weekend, violating federal law that prohibits armed entry of that variety unless danger is reasonable suspected?

So here's the point - the Clinton administration did far worse to its own people by abusing it powers than what Bush has even been accused of. Did you speak against that?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Sounds like Saudi Arabia.

Melon

It does, and I have no earthly idea why America is so buddy-buddy with them. But that didn't started with Dubya.

 

[melon]

It does, and I have no earthly idea why America is so buddy-buddy with them.

You don't need to wonder why. It's oil.

Melon

 

[80sU2isBest]

No, I am saying that child rape and murders of women which seemingly went on at Abu Ghraib is worse or as bad as executing dissidents and Christians.

That is what I am saying.

Please do not misintrepret my comments.

"Seemingly went on". Can't misinterpret that.

And even if it did happen, it was by a small group of soldiers, and was not endorsed, commanded, or condoned by the Bush Admin.

The forced abortions and executions of Christians and Diisidents was the Chinese governement.

There's a world of difference between atrocities committed by a group of soldiers and attrocities committed by a government.

 

[financeguy]

"Seemingly went on". Can't misinterpret that.

And even if it did happen, it was by a small group of soldiers, and was not endorsed, commanded, or condoned by the Bush Admin.

The forced abortions and executions of Christians and Diisidents was the Chinese governement.

There's a world of difference between atrocities committed by a group of soldiers and attrocities committed by a government.

No there is not a 'world of difference'. Abu Ghraib was operated by US government personnel in the payroll of US military. You call them 'soldiers', I call them criminals/mercenaries. Anyway.

So there is no essential difference, except possibly one of scale, i.e., I would assume that China has executed more dissidents than the US.

 

[80sU2isBest]

There is a world of difference. People are being prosecuted and imprisoned by the federal government for their part in this. Does the Chinese Government imprison their soldiers for their crimes? Of course not, because it is the Chinese Government that gave the orders in the first place.

I am not saying that what these criminal soldiers did was any better than the murder of dissidents and Christians.

What I am saying is that theer is a difference, especially since we are talking about governments here.

 

[BVS]

Yes there's a huge difference and there's also a huge difference in standards.