shart1780 said:
I think you missed my point entirely. I'm not saying you DON'T value life. I'm saying that without the beliefe that there is a higher cause, and that we don't have a soul, there really is no logical reason to believe that we as humans have meaningful feelings or lives. Without the igher cause there is no logical reason to believe so, so it seems to me like we'd all be fooling ourselves. Again, my point was NEVER that you don't value other people. I'm just asking what value do we truly have if we're just basically atoms moving about?
And I will never justify the travesties you listed that were done in te name of religion. While I am religious, I would never claim that ANY of those could be justified. I can guarantee you Jesus would never approve of those things.
And there's another point I'd like to bring up. Why would someone who doesn't believe in a higher power, or that we have souls, believe that we as humans have meaningful feelings? That is to say, why would it matter if I made my friend sad? Why would that be wrong? If I stole my friend's money it would logically just be the moving of some paper from one being to another. If I hurt my friend's feelings very badly why would it matter? What would make hurt "bad"? It seems to me that in a universe like this there would be absolutely no right and wrong, but only left and right (so to speak). There would be actions and reactions, but no real consequences beyond that.
Whenever I bring this point up I usually get the same response. Something like "but it's bad because it hurt my friend!!". So? That's my whole point. Why is hurting your friend bad in a material universe? Why is "hurt" bad? Why is pain bad? Why is complete chaos bad? Why is ANYTHING bad? There would be no bad. Like I said, just right or left. Actions and reactions.
Explaining you how I feel or see the world, without needing a God entirely, might be as hard as to explain a blind person the color blue. No offense meant here.
Your misconception starts with the implication, that atheists see the whole world, or the universe, only as material, or atoms and molecules. While the whole universe really is just that, it doesn't mean that our lifes and the lifes of other people, or other creatures, are just atoms moving around.
We are capable of feelings, interaction and to develop complex relationships that go way beyond chemicals interchanging to cause reactions in the other persons brain.
You seem to need the concept of God to have "meaningful feelings or lives". Otherwise I don't get why you ask for the logic behind an atheist developing such feelings. I don't need this at all, still have a similar set of values.
Without the igher cause there is no logical reason to believe so, so it seems to me like we'd all be fooling ourselves.
What do you mean by that?
I have been asking myself what we are supposed to do, or why we do all this, when from one second to the other everything ends just like that. But I don't see the need for creating some belief that there will be another level after my life has ended. I don't see the need for creating a belief in some higher being only to feel better about myself. I enjoy being around, and I enjoy interacting with other people and doing stuff I like.
You say morals are ingrained to us by God. That's your belief. I say morals get learned through observation and how our parents and all the people around us teach us morals. That's how I see it. For you a world without God doesn't function, so you'll hardly understand why for me this is all logical without God.
As I told you before, answers may be found by
Immanuel Kant.
I don't care why we have meaningful feelings, but I know that we have them. Because I feel them. I think, survival is a good reason. If we didn't feel anything, we would not enjoy our lives. And we would eventually die.
So, by using your logic, hurting your friend is bad because God wouldn't like it and it goes against your belief. Later you say that when you interact with people you don't think about your religion, and of course we just misunderstand you. Yet you are saying that an atheist isn't using logic, as he ust doesn't want to hurt another person's feelings just because he doesn't want to.
I am feeling pain, and as it doesn't feel good, it's bad. Just as french fries are bad for me, as I don't like them, or rap is bad for me as I don't like it.
So, just tell me, why do you think hurting another one's feelings is bad? Why do you think chaos is bad?
I don't want to be a bad person, because it goes against my set or morals. I don't want to hurt other people because I don't see value in it. And I also don't want to get hurt myself. I wouldn't enjoy making people feel bad about themselves, except they try to do the same with me. But even then I'm generally too kind to get mean.
For me, there are real consequences, believe it or not. I view life is much more than just a material being without reason. Even if times are sometimes tough, like they have been recently and continue to be for quite a while.