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Old 09-11-2017, 01:15 PM   #601
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Because of legal - or illegal - immigration? I think that would make a difference on attitudes.
Because of legal and population growth.


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the gerrymandering, well both sides are guilty of that. I'm certainly open to reforming that mess.
Pocket goto answer.


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I don't think that the Voter ID will stop illegal immigration or prevent America from becoming less white. However, it does appeal to common sense (good order) and will remove controversy about the validity of vote counts.
Provide everyone an ID and I'm all for it.
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I think it is wrong to assume that minorities will always vote for the Democrats. Many Latinos have conservative values and will be drawn to the Republican party over time for that reason. It will take another few election cycles to see if "Economic Nationalism" catches on with voters in the inner-cities...
As long as you continue to make them scapegoats, you'll never have a chance.
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Old 09-11-2017, 01:21 PM   #602
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Provide everyone an ID and I'm all for it.
Can you define what you mean by everyone? Do you mean all US citizens of legal voting age? If so, I agree. If not, who else would you include?
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Old 09-11-2017, 01:26 PM   #603
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Can you define what you mean by everyone? Do you mean all US citizens of legal voting age? If so, I agree. If not, who else would you include?
We agree.
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Old 09-11-2017, 01:27 PM   #604
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We agree.
Something to build on
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Old 09-11-2017, 01:49 PM   #605
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That said, it's a fairly narrow reading of history, suggestive of someone who's been marinating in Gibbon for too long (although he didn't have many kind words for the 'Empire of the Greeks' admittedly).
Gibbon still has a place at the table of historians...(because of his methodology)

I'm open to reading some updated (non PC) material that covers Europe from the time period of Late Rome to the Middle Ages. Do you have any suggestions?

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I don't want a bar of Harris or Hitchens - that loathsome cheerleader for war without end - but their breed of heavily armed liberalism is, or was, unfortunately all too mainstream.
What I respect most about these gentlemen (aside from their rhetorical skills and clear thinking) - is their ability to freely state their conclusions without concern for the PC police. If more liberals did this, they would be easier to engage with.
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Old 09-11-2017, 01:54 PM   #606
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There is perhaps some unnecessary controversy around what I posted because of the Age of Political Correctness, but I didn't make anything up. Here are some Wikipedia articles for you (about as neutral as you are going to find.) There are certainly more scholarly works out there if you are eager to research this time period.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab%E...Byzantine_wars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...he_Middle_Ages
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vienna

Additional Reading:
6 Reasons the Dark Ages Weren’t So Dark - History Lists
How the Middle Ages Really Were | HuffPost
MYTHS ABOUT THE MIDDLE AGES
https://books.google.com.au/books?id...page&q&f=false


source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture
L-O-fucking-L.

my history degree and i find your condescending tone while simultaneously pushing wikipedia and the huffington post as a source hilarious.
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Old 09-11-2017, 01:56 PM   #607
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Two terms I hope someday never to hear another adult use: 'fake news' and 'politically correct'.

Fake news - I don't agree with you
PC - but I want to be an asshole
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Old 09-11-2017, 01:59 PM   #608
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Because of legal - or illegal - immigration? I think that would make a difference on attitudes.
Obviously both. Nobody who is sane actually thinks that >10 million people are getting deported.
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Old 09-11-2017, 02:23 PM   #609
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L-O-fucking-L.

my history degree and i find your condescending tone while simultaneously pushing wikipedia and the huffington post as a source hilarious.
I posted the articles simply to show you 1) my statements weren't made up, and 2) they are so non-controversial you can find them on a place like Wikipedia.
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Old 09-11-2017, 02:28 PM   #610
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oh my god

"it's on wikipedia, it must be true"



just stop. you're so out of your depth.
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Old 09-11-2017, 03:22 PM   #611
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oh my god

"it's on wikipedia, it must be true"



just stop. you're so out of your depth.
DaveC,

Your tantrum emojis make these last few posts by you appear rather childish.

You implied that I was making up my own facts - and I am showing you, that at a minimum, I can quickly cite several Wikipedia articles as sources (which may not prove I am right in my conclusions, but it does prove I'm not making up my own facts).

Wikipedia is a valid source for the level of discussion we are engaging in here- in the same we use a dictionary. It is not meant to be in-depth study of any particular subject - just a high-level review of the essential information.

If I were to write a scholarly paper on the subject, then no - Wikipedia does not suffice. If we want to look at basic, agreed upon facts like "who won the 1964 World Series" or "What was the Battle of Tours" - then it's decent enough...and it's more than what you have offered.
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Old 09-11-2017, 04:41 PM   #612
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Old 09-11-2017, 06:23 PM   #613
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DaveC,

Your tantrum emojis make these last few posts by you appear rather childish.

You implied that I was making up my own facts - and I am showing you, that at a minimum, I can quickly cite several Wikipedia articles as sources (which may not prove I am right in my conclusions, but it does prove I'm not making up my own facts).

Wikipedia is a valid source for the level of discussion we are engaging in here- in the same we use a dictionary. It is not meant to be in-depth study of any particular subject - just a high-level review of the essential information.

If I were to write a scholarly paper on the subject, then no - Wikipedia does not suffice. If we want to look at basic, agreed upon facts like "who won the 1964 World Series" or "What was the Battle of Tours" - then it's decent enough...and it's more than what you have offered.
i'm laughing because you're looking at this in the most simplistic shallow way possible and from that drawing extraordinary conclusions for the purpose of shoehorning them in to some narrative that is demonstrably wrong.

but if you insist...

 


what we refer to (and what you're thinking of) as "the byzantine empire" only controlled the middle east for about 200 years after the fall of rome and the western empire. after the rise of islam it controlled a large portion of the balkans and greece, and parts of asia minor and anatolia, but almost nothing outside of that besides antioch and the bottom part of the boot of italy. it spent the rest of its days fighting the sultanate of rum, crusaders, and turks.

take a look at this and tell us again how the empire stayed "more or less intact for over 1000 years":



constantinople itself was sacked by crusaders in 1204 and not retaken by the byzantines for another 50 years. at that point the city was no longer a centre of culture and education and learning, it was drastically depopulated and barely able to defend itself for the next 200 years despite being the single most strategically defensible location on earth.

constantinople was indeed a highly cultured, educated, scientific city for a few hundred years after the fall of western rome. nobody's denying that. the architectural accomplishments in particular of the eastern empire are nothing short of spectacular in the days when the largest thing built west of constantinople between around 450-1000 was this royal tomb:



nor am i trying to say that the byzantine world contributed nothing to the renaissance either. that would be equally stupid. when the crusaders sacked the city many of the documents in the university were taken off to western europe, even though the vast majority were lost when the university was burned to the ground (there's western europe showing off that "philosophical DNA" you seem to think is inherent).

but what is bugging me most about this is your instant rejection of the islamic sciences being the major force in advancing knowledge in the middle ages, as if even the notion is offensive.

the "house of wisdom" was founded by the abbasid caliph in baghdad in the late 700s. he invited scholars from all over the world to come and study there, and hired huge teams of scribes and translators to copy any written material that could be gathered from all corners of the caliphate into arabic. these included greek texts, chinese texts, indian texts, african texts, and very often these translations are the only surviving copy of the original documents that we still have today. these documents were about every scholarly subject you can think of, from alchemy to medicine to mathematics to architecture. they invented calendars, weights and measures, and methods for keeping time and making measurements that we still use today. they invented the number system we use (we still call them "arabic numerals"). they invented the very concept of "zero". without the islamic caliph founding the house of wisdom, there would quite literally be *enormous* gaps in human knowledge that we would either simply not know about anymore or would have had to rediscover from scratch. that's a fact.

wisdom and knowledge were so highly prized by the caliphate that peace treaties after wars won by the caliphate frequently claimed books and scrolls as the victor's spoils of war rather than the usual gold and grain plunder.

the caliph himself made frequent trips to cairo to sponsor and personally take part in the first archaeological excavations of the great pyramids of giza. the west would not begin to approach archaeology in a scientific way for many centuries.

take a look up in the sky tonight and see if you can find the stars altair, deneb, and aldebaran - those stars and dozens of others were first categorized and named by arab astronomers. the milky way galaxy was first postulated to be an enormous nebula of faraway stars by arab scientists in andalusia (spain), even though this couldn't be proven until hundreds of years later when galileo had a telescope powerful enough to observe it and confirm that they were right.

muhammad al-khwarizmi introduced the decimal system into mathematics, invented algebra, more or less invented trigonometry, greatly advanced geography (building off the work of ptolemy) and accurately (for the time) mapped the world on behalf of the caliph. his latinized name (algoritmi) are where the very word "algorithm" comes from. he was a persian and did all his work in baghdad. again, he invented an entirely new field of mathematics - this is an accomplishment on par with isaac newton inventing calculus.

i could go on and on but this post is already getting way too long and i think (hope) that by now i've proven my point.

basically, for you to claim that emphasizing the vitality of the islamic sciences to the subsequent western renaissance is "revisionist/PC garbage" is laughably ignorant and frankly offensive whitewashing.
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Old 09-11-2017, 07:04 PM   #614
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i'm laughing because you're looking at this in the most simplistic shallow way possible and from that drawing extraordinary conclusions for the purpose of shoehorning them in to some narrative that is demonstrably wrong.

but if you insist...

 


what we refer to (and what you're thinking of) as "the byzantine empire" only controlled the middle east for about 200 years after the fall of rome and the western empire. after the rise of islam it controlled a large portion of the balkans and greece, and parts of asia minor and anatolia, but almost nothing outside of that besides antioch and the bottom part of the boot of italy. it spent the rest of its days fighting the sultanate of rum, crusaders, and turks.

take a look at this and tell us again how the empire stayed "more or less intact for over 1000 years":



constantinople itself was sacked by crusaders in 1204 and not retaken by the byzantines for another 50 years. at that point the city was no longer a centre of culture and education and learning, it was drastically depopulated and barely able to defend itself for the next 200 years despite being the single most strategically defensible location on earth.

constantinople was indeed a highly cultured, educated, scientific city for a few hundred years after the fall of western rome. nobody's denying that. the architectural accomplishments in particular of the eastern empire are nothing short of spectacular in the days when the largest thing built west of constantinople between around 450-1000 was this royal tomb:



nor am i trying to say that the byzantine world contributed nothing to the renaissance either. that would be equally stupid. when the crusaders sacked the city many of the documents in the university were taken off to western europe, even though the vast majority were lost when the university was burned to the ground (there's western europe showing off that "philosophical DNA" you seem to think is inherent).

but what is bugging me most about this is your instant rejection of the islamic sciences being the major force in advancing knowledge in the middle ages, as if even the notion is offensive.

the "house of wisdom" was founded by the abbasid caliph in baghdad in the late 700s. he invited scholars from all over the world to come and study there, and hired huge teams of scribes and translators to copy any written material that could be gathered from all corners of the caliphate into arabic. these included greek texts, chinese texts, indian texts, african texts, and very often these translations are the only surviving copy of the original documents that we still have today. these documents were about every scholarly subject you can think of, from alchemy to medicine to mathematics to architecture. they invented calendars, weights and measures, and methods for keeping time and making measurements that we still use today. they invented the number system we use (we still call them "arabic numerals"). they invented the very concept of "zero". without the islamic caliph founding the house of wisdom, there would quite literally be *enormous* gaps in human knowledge that we would either simply not know about anymore or would have had to rediscover from scratch. that's a fact.

wisdom and knowledge were so highly prized by the caliphate that peace treaties after wars won by the caliphate frequently claimed books and scrolls as the victor's spoils of war rather than the usual gold and grain plunder.

the caliph himself made frequent trips to cairo to sponsor and personally take part in the first archaeological excavations of the great pyramids of giza. the west would not begin to approach archaeology in a scientific way for many centuries.

take a look up in the sky tonight and see if you can find the stars altair, deneb, and aldebaran - those stars and dozens of others were first categorized and named by arab astronomers. the milky way galaxy was first postulated to be an enormous nebula of faraway stars by arab scientists in andalusia (spain), even though this couldn't be proven until hundreds of years later when galileo had a telescope powerful enough to observe it and confirm that they were right.

muhammad al-khwarizmi introduced the decimal system into mathematics, invented algebra, more or less invented trigonometry, greatly advanced geography (building off the work of ptolemy) and accurately (for the time) mapped the world on behalf of the caliph. his latinized name (algoritmi) are where the very word "algorithm" comes from. he was a persian and did all his work in baghdad. again, he invented an entirely new field of mathematics - this is an accomplishment on par with isaac newton inventing calculus.

i could go on and on but this post is already getting way too long and i think (hope) that by now i've proven my point.

basically, for you to claim that emphasizing the vitality of the islamic sciences to the subsequent western renaissance is "revisionist/PC garbage" is laughably ignorant and frankly offensive whitewashing.


Until now I'd never known that the contributions of the Islamic world to mathematics, science, arts, etc had been cast into doubt. Though I suppose I'm not surprised.

Nicely done response, Dave - thanks for taking the time.
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Old 09-11-2017, 07:06 PM   #615
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Until now I'd never known that the contributions of the Islamic world to mathematics, science, arts, etc had been cast into doubt. Though I suppose I'm not surprised.

Nicely done response, Dave - thanks for taking the time.
Same.

Same.

And same!
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Old 09-11-2017, 07:19 PM   #616
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Great post.

Though I always thought the "Arabic numerals" were a misnomer as they were actually invented in Hindu India, but spread by Arabs. Either way, not a "Western civilization" with its spectacular DNA.
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Old 09-11-2017, 07:28 PM   #617
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"invented" was the wrong word choice there. you're right that they are originally from india. but al-khwarizmi was the first to use arabic numerals in a mathematical proof, and they were first widely popularized in his book "the compendious book on calculation by completion and balancing" (little known fact, he also inspired u2's song naming algorithm).
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Old 09-11-2017, 07:34 PM   #618
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Until now I'd never known that the contributions of the Islamic world to mathematics, science, arts, etc had been cast into doubt. Though I suppose I'm not surprised.

Nicely done response, Dave - thanks for taking the time.
Doubted? No. Overemphasized and exaggerated compared to the collosal achievements of Western Civilization? Yes. Did Europe require Islam to preserve this knowledge? No. These regions were Hellenestic...with some overlapping Persian influence.

And let's not forget most of those "Muslim" achievements came within 100 years of taking over Hellenestic territories...before the fundamentalists eventually won and Greek philosophy and math lost...

And we got off on this tangent because of references to the now cliche and debunked myths of the European Dark Ages...and the downplaying of the influence of Byzantium...

However, his recent response is certainly worthy of this forum...and I love maps.
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Old 09-11-2017, 07:38 PM   #619
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AEON - have you spent much time in modern-day Europe? Because something tells me you wouldn't really be a great fit there...
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Old 09-11-2017, 07:40 PM   #620
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Doubted? No. Overemphasized and exaggerated compared to the collosal achievements of the Western Civilization? Yes. Did Europe require Islam to preserve this knowledge? No. These regions were Hellenestic...with some overlapping Persian influence.

And let's not forget most of those "Muslim" achievements came within 100 years of taking over Hellenestic territories...before the fundamentalists eventually won and Greek philosophy and math lost...
holy sweet fuck. i give up.

you are literally incapable of giving credit for anything to anyone who isn't a white european.
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