Too Pro-Life for Pro-Choicers, Too Pro-Choice for Pro-Lifers (FYM Challenge Spinoff)

[gvox]

There have been some very well reasoned arguments on both sides of the issue, so I guess I'll just stick to my opinion to make it short..

I consider myself pro-choice: you get to choose whether or not to keep the baby after it's been born.

Abortion is, plain and simple, the termination of a human life. That makes it murder in my eyes.

By far the majority of women do NOT get abortions because they were raped - the 'what about rape' argument has become the ace up the sleeve for the pro choicers, but it does not represent the reason why 99% of women get abortions.

And what everyone else said who mentioned that an abortion certainly wont ease the pain...in fact 50 years from now we'll probably be reading of studies of the devastating psychological effects killing a helpless baby can have on a woman.

 

[diamond]

i agree w TheGman.

 

[bonosloveslave]

...in fact 50 years from now we'll probably be reading of studies of the devastating psychological effects killing a helpless baby can have on a woman.

It hasn't taken 50 years - there is ample documentation on Post-Abortion Stress Disorder, which is similar in many ways to post-traumatic stress disorder. This is a violent act that some women can rationalize away at the time of the abortion, maybe even for 5, 10, 20 years. But like any emotional or physical trauma, we can only repress the effects for so long - they will come out at some point if we haven't dealt with it. Yes, in the short term some women may say they feel relief, but that secret is still there festering away.

I do not want to condemn the women that have already been through this - there is healing and forgiveness if they are willing to talk about it - but so many of them never were told that this 'choice' would haunt them for the rest of their life. Planned Parenthood is not pro-choice - unless you consider that they'll give you your choice of 1pm or 3pm for your abortion time. They do not inform women of the psychological and physical complications that very likely will occur. Angela is right - an abortion only ends a pregnancy, no other problems does it solve, and it pretty much means you'll be trading that problem in for a whole new set of problems.

 

[STING2]

I have an interesting question for everyone here. The law says that an unborn Fetus/Baby within the first 3 months does not have the same rights as a Fetus/Baby the first day of birth, making abortion legal in those first three months. But what if the Fetus/baby in those first 3 months were to die as the result of the actions by another person, could the mother then take legal action against that person on the same grounds that she would with a baby that was one month out of the womb?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I'm with daisybean and Kristie on their stances on abortion.

While I myself will probably never have an abortion, I do feel the option should be there for a woman.

I feel life begins when the actual birth occurs-until then, it's developing into a human, but is not fully one yet. So I don't see it as murder.

I also think people need to at least imagine themselves in the shoes of a woman deciding whether or not to get an abortion. They need to ask themselves, "If I were in her shoes, what would I do?" Like Everlast said in his song, "God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes/Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose". I feel that's very true.

Abortion needs to be a private issue-not something our government needs to control. It's none of their business. It's nobody else's business unless the woman allows others to be involved in the decision making.

Abortion should remain legal, and should be there as an option for women.

Angela

 

[nbcrusader]

I feel life begins when the actual birth occurs-until then, it's developing into a human, but is not fully one yet. So I don't see it as murder.

For discussion purposes only:

Why then? Humans continue to develop for many years after birth and are wholly dependent on a parent. Why shouldn't be the government's business if you want to kill your 3 year old for whatever personal, private reason?

 

[Dreadsox]

I used to be pro-choice. Then we got pregnant. Then I saw the ultrasound. Then the "baby" and I would play games through momma's belly at night.

My heart and mind were forever changed. There is intelligent life in there.

Peace

 

[Mrs. Edge]

Re: Euthenasia -

When our pets are suffering, we put them down without a moment's hesitation because it's "the right thing to do".

I think people deserve the same mercy that we give our pets. If I were old with Alzheimers and a burden to my family, or a vegetable or something I would want them to dispatch me IMMEDIATELY. Who wants to live when there is no quality of life, and you are ruining the lives of your family? It makes NO SENSE!!!! We aren't really helping the person, we are assuaging our own guilt.

Re: Abortion -

The whole idea that very few women have abortions because of rape and therefore it's an ace up the sleeve of the pro-choicers....

Well that just punishes the legitimate victims even more, just because there are others who abuse the system. There ARE some women who really need this "ace in the sleeve". If I had been raped or the victim of incest, there is NO WAY I could bear carrying that child. And can you imagine how the child would feel?

I think abortions should be taken on a case by case basis. OBVIOUSLY we all agree that mere carelessness is no reason to have an abortion, but in these extreme cases it makes sense. When the fetus is only a small composition of cells, I don't think it really knows the difference.

If only they could find some way of gently vacuuming the fetus out of the woman and growing it in a lab until it's old enough to be adopted.....that would prevent abortions entirely!

 

[pax]

If only they could find some way of gently vacuuming the fetus out of the woman and growing it in a lab until it's old enough to be adopted.....that would prevent abortions entirely!

Verrrrrry interesting. I truly never thought about that. Science can't be that far from something like that. Then everyone wins: the fetus gets a chance at life and the mother doesn't have to go through with the pregnancy.

 

[us3]

I used to be pro-choice. Then we got pregnant. Then I saw the ultrasound. Then the "baby" and I would play games through momma's belly at night.

My heart and mind were forever changed. There is intelligent life in there.

Peace

wonder what the "intelligent life" thought of the man on the outside peeking through the belly button yelling "peek-a-boo"?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Humans continue to develop for many years after birth and are wholly dependent on a parent.

Humans are dependent on a parent until a certain age-once they get out on their own they can function on their own.

And yes, after birth, humans continue to develop-but they're actual humans then. Before birth, they are still developing into humans.

Originally posted by nbcrusader
Why shouldn't be the government's business if you want to kill your 3 year old for whatever personal, private reason?

Again, because the 3 year old is an actual human.

There's a big difference between a 3 year old and a three month old fetus.

Angela

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Re: Euthenasia -

When our pets are suffering, we put them down without a moment's hesitation because it's "the right thing to do".

I think people deserve the same mercy that we give our pets. If I were old with Alzheimers and a burden to my family, or a vegetable or something I would want them to dispatch me IMMEDIATELY. Who wants to live when there is no quality of life, and you are ruining the lives of your family? It makes NO SENSE!!!! We aren't really helping the person, we are assuaging our own guilt.

Re: Abortion -

The whole idea that very few women have abortions because of rape and therefore it's an ace up the sleeve of the pro-choicers....

Well that just punishes the legitimate victims even more, just because there are others who abuse the system. There ARE some women who really need this "ace in the sleeve". If I had been raped or the victim of incest, there is NO WAY I could bear carrying that child. And can you imagine how the child would feel?

I think abortions should be taken on a case by case basis. OBVIOUSLY we all agree that mere carelessness is no reason to have an abortion, but in these extreme cases it makes sense. When the fetus is only a small composition of cells, I don't think it really knows the difference.

If only they could find some way of gently vacuuming the fetus out of the woman and growing it in a lab until it's old enough to be adopted.....that would prevent abortions entirely!

Agree with all you said-and interesting idea at the end there.

How much you wanna bet that scientists will find a way to do that at some point and time in the near future?

Angela

 

[nbcrusader]

So a three month old fetus is something less than a puppy? On par with a goldfish? We have laws against killing puppies, but goldfish get flushed down the toilet all the time. When does this thing achieve human status?

 

[bonoman]

I'm sorry i dont have time to read the whole thread but i was just wondering, after reading the first comment here.

Do the American gov't supply birht control for free?

 

[nbcrusader]

I'm sorry i dont have time to read the whole thread but i was just wondering, after reading the first comment here.

Do the American gov't supply birht control for free?

Yes, but only in certain areas. The US government does not supply open, unlimited free birth control.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

So a three month old fetus is something less than a puppy? On par with a goldfish? We have laws against killing puppies, but goldfish get flushed down the toilet all the time. When does this thing achieve human status?

The fetus achieves human status the day it's born, because then it begins living something of a life.

The goldfish example is a moot point, because goldfish get flushed down the toilet only when they die-nobody's ever flushed a live goldfish down a toilet, at least not that I've heard of, and if anyone has, that's stupid.

And killing puppies is wrong because they're living something of a life.

Angela

 

[nbcrusader]

The animal examples were used for illustration of other laws regulating the taking of another life.

How do you define, then, "something of a life"?

Unfortunately, I am afraid we will head down a line of semantics.

 

[STING2]

Moonlit_Angel,

So if a pregnant women in her third trimester was stabbed and she survived but her fetus/baby died, you would not call that murder?

 

[gvox]

I used to be pro-choice. Then we got pregnant. Then I saw the ultrasound. Then the "baby" and I would play games through momma's belly at night.

My heart and mind were forever changed. There is intelligent life in there.

Peace

What Dreadsox said. An ultrasound will change your perspective forever.

 

[gvox]

Moonlit_Angel,

So if a pregnant women in her third trimester was stabbed and she survived but her fetus/baby died, you would not call that murder?

Yes they would, at least that's how it's happened here in the Great White North. Three cases that I recall vaguely:

- where a drunk driver was charged and convicted of dangerous driving causing death when the mother lived and the baby/fetus did not.

- when a deranged man kicked a pregnant woman and she miscarried the baby, he was charged with manslaugther

- and one sick fuck killed his pregnant wife, he was charged with two counts of murder.

And yet we let doctors kill babies as long as their mothers say its ok... !!!

 

[Sicy]

I'm sorry i dont have time to read the whole thread but i was just wondering, after reading the first comment here.

Do the American gov't supply birht control for free?

I think Planned Parenthood does.

 

[melon]

Well, murder is illegal, yes?

But we let the government execute prisoners? Isn't murder the same no matter what? But where is the religious right to stop this state-sponsored murder? Oh that's right...they're the ones ready to pull the switch.

Melon

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Well, murder is illegal, yes?

But we let the government execute prisoners? Isn't murder the same no matter what? But where is the religious right to stop this state-sponsored murder? Oh that's right...they're the ones ready to pull the switch.

Melon

Exactly.

Sting2, from what I understand, aren't abortions illegal in the third trimester, anyway? Abortions are usually allowed during the first trimester, but not any farther than that.

And, anyway, by the third trimester I personally figure that if a woman's gone that far in her pregnancy she should just go through with the birth, especially if she's in the last days of it, just because I don't see the point in aborting it by then.

And what do I consider "something of a life"? What I mean by that is people or animals who actually do things. People and animals actually go places and interact with others. Fetuses don't really do any of that stuff, and they won't until they are born, assuming they're carried to term.

Angela

 

[diamond]

i think some abortions should b retro-active.

 

[BAW]

Abortions are usually allowed during the first trimester, but not any farther than that.

No, they are allowed in the second trimester but finding a doctor willing to do it is another story. It is a 2 day procedure and pretty awful, so I wont go into detail. I know someone who had it done at 17 weeks.

I have always considered myself pro-choice but when I realized what was actually being done to a 4 month old fetus while I sat in the waiting room, I really started questioning my beliefs.

 

[pax]

I think Planned Parenthood does.

I believe that PP *can*, but it's usually not for free; I think they charge on a sliding scale--which is to say nothing of the insurance companies who hand out Viagra like Pez, but still make women pay some or all of the cost of birth control.

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

this will be long.

i figured i might as well weigh in too. i'm pro-choice. i won't say that in a similar situation, i'd get an abortion, but i respect the fact that each woman should be able to choose. in a country built on allowing so many freedoms, i think this is just another one.

true, i don't think it'd be right for a girl who sleeps around, insisting on never using a condom (i've encountered several women like this, one of which did get pregnant), and getting pregnant to turn around and have an abortion - to undo her oops! but, legal is legal, and if abortions are legal, women will then be allowed to have them, regardless of her reasons.

adoption is always an option, but i dunno. i look at it this way: there's already so many children in orphanages, waiting to be adopted, why add more? however, again, i respect a woman's decision to not abort her baby, and to put it up for adoption. again, it's great that a woman who gets pregnant but does not want her baby has many choices to choose from.

also, what about teenagers who get pregnant? so many view it that when a woman gets pregnant and knows she doesn't want to keep the child (as in raise it as her own), then adoption's easy! no it's not. a 16 year old girl who gets pregnant then gets yanked out of school. she has to be pregnant for nine long months. schools here have a rule where a pregnant woman can only stay in school for so long before she has to get home schooled. is that fair for her? she runs the risk of being a drop-out almost as much as a 16 year old who raises her baby. not to mention what happens when she sees her baby after it's born.

how would you feel if you saw your little baby you just gave birth to, for the first and only time. i know many women then change their minds and want to keep it. i know i probably would. to see this tiny little creature, knowing it was a part of me for nine long months, and will always be a part of me, i don't think i could bear giving it up. essentially, i think for teenagers, more than any demographic, legal abortions are most essential to them.

also, since i saw people bring up euthanasia, i thought i'd touch on it as well. i don't see the point in having a person live their entire life in pain if they don't want to. personally, i'd make it legal, but with several stipulations. for example, it could only be up to the person to decide, and they'd have to be of sound mind and body to declare they'd want this for themselves (essentially, it would have to be in their will or some other legal document, so not anyone can decide to pull the plug, or have someone delirious with pain and be "oh sure, kill me, fine" and not necessarily mean it.) beforehand. maybe in rare cases, like if they were in some freak accident or something, and never had the opportunity to speak up, a family member could decide. i dunno.

in the case of euthanasia, sure, i'd do it. for myself, that is. if something ever happened to me and i was despondent and would be that way for the rest of my life, i'd want doctors to try whatever they could, and when everything was exhausted, leave it up to my loved ones to decide if and when to pull the plug. i wouldn't want to be a burden to people (especially financially, i don't see the point in spending thousands a year keeping me alive when i don't even know i am), i'd want to let them decide if there's a point in keeping me alive.

in the case of abortion, i don't know. i don't know if i could ever go through with it. especially knowing how many times my mother tried to get pregnant and how many miscarriages she had, i don't think it'd be right to turn around and almost rub that in her face, like "look how hard it was for you to get pregnant, and how easy it is for me! and look how much easier it is for me to get unpregnant! ha!" i know it's only my decision and i shouldn't let outside influences pressure me, but even disregarding that, i just don't think i'd have the guts to do it. but i like knowing i could get one if i had to, and not have to get some shady person to ram a coat hanger up there and abort the baby. i like having that choice, if i needed it.

i look at abortion and euthanasia the same way in some cases. what i mean is, what if a mother was told their child, if born, would be essentially a vegetable? never being able to do anything for themselves, and being brain dead? they wouldn't even be aware of their surroundings or know they're even alive. what kind of life is that? i don't know if i would be able to handle knowing my child would live such a horrible life. i just don't think it'd be fair for the child.

essentially, both come down to the person's decision. not some doctor or nurse, or the annoyed daughter sick of taking care of their grandmother with alzheimer's, but the person themselves. with abortion, the mother should think for herself and her child, and with euthanasia, it should be up to the person in question. no one else.

oh, and pax is right. i've only recently gotten my health insurance back. i've been paying through the nose for my birth control without any insurance. $30 a month! the shots are MUCH easier (and cheaper, it's only a little more for three months' worth, and no remembering to take a pill, but it wreacked havoc on my health and livelihood.) to take. now there's even the patch. i can only get birth control for free if it's shown that i need it for health reasons. it worked back when i was single, because that's why i was taking it. now that i'm married, they won't touch it. how is this fair? it disgusts me that people will impose their opinions and beliefs on others, like only unprotected sex is okay. condoms aren't free (or cheap), and neither is any other form of birth control. all this because a government not based on religion at all thinks it's immoral for a woman to use any form of birth control.

 

[STING2]

Moonlit_angel,

Ok, same question but lets make it the first trimester. If a person were to stab a women and kill the womens first trimester fetus/baby, would you consider that murder?

 

[Angela Harlem]

I dont believe for a second there is absolutely no option in America for those girls and women who cannot afford contraception. Its one thing for the government to not supply the pill or other, but dont tell me there is no private sector welfare agencies who can provide things. Here, there are countless. Options are aplenty if you just have a look around, and you never have to even look very far. Money isn't an issue for those who by no fault of their own, are unable to take this responsibility.
Unwanted pregnancies are a human error, and one that we cannot judge others for. We debate over the actions of those who pay for making this mistake, as if we have answers, yet at the end of the day, pro choicer's will be considering the mother first and the pro lifers, the fetus.

 

[bonoman]

herer in canada you can get the pill and dont even have to give names or have a parent constent (if under 18). I cant believe that the US gov't doesnt have that installed in your country.

Oh also about the being charged with murder bit for killing a baby still in the womb. A friend of mine got into a very bad accident and the man who hit them was drunk. They sued because they were very badly hurt. They settled for 125,000 each and two weeks after they got the settlement she found out she had been pregnant. He was then charged with mansluaghter.