VintagePunk
Blue Crack Distributor
I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking me who I'm holding her up against, when making the comparison, or are you asking for a list of her qualities and behaviours that I feel make her moral?
VintagePunk said:I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking me who I'm holding her up against, when making the comparison, or are you asking for a list of her qualities and behaviours that I feel make her moral?
A_Wanderer said:Ones of positive inquiry and free thought perhaps? An interest in the natural world and it's mechanisms is another trait to foster. Faith is the most overrated supposed virtue.
VintagePunk said:I should have known better than attempt to engage in conversation with you, when you're one of the main offenders of the copy-paste scripture quoting style of discussion, and the very subject of this thread.
Of course, your source is the bible, so according to you, you win by default, because you have this man-made tome around which you base your life.
I'm out, I'm not even going to attempt rational conversation with you.
VintagePunk said:I'm out, I'm not even going to attempt rational conversation with you.
AEON said:
Maycocksean, I'm not sure what is being said here. Could you please elaborate?
maycocksean said:
What I meant was that the Chinese atheists that I've encountered don't seem to have the anger against faith or belief that is often found in Western atheists, who often have a lot of bitterness due to negative experiences with people who claimed to be Christians (the "nasty Christians" I referred to) whether it was an oppressive church, judgemental Sunday school teachers, or someone like the lady that dazzlingamy described in her most recent post.
The Chinese atheist doesn't seem to have that baggage. At least that I've observed.
Which in a way makes them more open-minded to faith.
AEON said:
I do not doubt you are correct. I am just curious – since you made a comparative statement (“the most”) - according to which collection of morals are you comparing your child against?
The list. And the source where it mentions this list of choices are in fact considered moral.
dazzlingamy said:OH PLEASE. Can we NOT have the 'morals come from the bible so if you don't believe in the bible why are you nice? you should just go around in your own filth killing everyone' speech. It's completely baseless and annoying.
Do you think the people before the bible was written had no morals? that they all walked around raping The egyptians seemed to go alright.
I'm a GOOD person. I am nice, and considerate. I'm sure religious people are too. But it doesn't mean god invented morals and thats where society gets them from. So please don't even try that argument again cause it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.
Made sense to these guys."All sects are different, because they come from men; morality is everywhere the same, because it comes from God."
--Voltaire
"Human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and can't really get rid of it."
--CS Lewis
"A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of Saint Thomas Aquinas, an unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal and natural law."
--Martin Luther King
Those virtues seem to be the products of romanticised romanticised Christendom but western thought predates Christianity and threads such individualism are consistent markers.INDY500 said:
Curiosity and being knowledgeable are certainly positive traits, I would include them among prudence. You perhaps downplay the need for faith as it is a theological virtue of Christianity (all though certainly essential to most religions).
The seven virtues of Western thought being;
Cardinal Virtues
-- Prudence (common sense)
-- Temperance (self-control)
-- Justice (fairness)
-- Fortitude (courage)
Theological Virtues
-- Faith (believe in a Greater)
-- Hope (looking forward)
-- Charity (love, forgiveness)
dazzlingamy said:OH PLEASE. Can we NOT have the 'morals come from the bible so if you don't believe in the bible why are you nice? you should just go around in your own filth killing everyone' speech. It's completely baseless and annoying.
Do you think the people before the bible was written had no morals? that they all walked around raping The egyptians seemed to go alright.
I'm a GOOD person. I am nice, and considerate. I'm sure religious people are too. But it doesn't mean god invented morals and thats where society gets them from. So please don't even try that argument again cause it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.
INDY500 said:Made sense to these guys.
dazzlingamy said:OH PLEASE. Can we NOT have the 'morals come from the bible so if you don't believe in the bible why are you nice? you should just go around in your own filth killing everyone' speech. It's completely baseless and annoying.
Do you think the people before the bible was written had no morals? that they all walked around raping The egyptians seemed to go alright.
I'm a GOOD person. I am nice, and considerate. I'm sure religious people are too. But it doesn't mean god invented morals and thats where society gets them from. So please don't even try that argument again cause it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.
1stepcloser said:
OH PLEASE. Can we NOT have the 'morals come from the bible so if you don't believe in the bible why are you nice? you should just go around in your own filth killing everyone' speech. It's completely baseless and annoying.
Do you think the people before the bible was written had no morals? that they all walked around raping The egyptians seemed to go alright.
I'm a GOOD person. I am nice, and considerate. I'm sure religious people are too. But it doesn't mean god invented morals and thats where society gets them from. So please don't even try that argument again cause it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.
1stepcloser said:
I remember having the same argument on here with someone a few months back and they couldn't understand that i didn't get my morals from the bible or any other ancient scripture. They couldn't get their head round the fact that i don't need some irrelevant ancient manuscript to tell me how to live my life
I empathise with your frustration wholeheartedly.
dazzlingamy said:Uhm, from my mother and society and the way my personality is. None of them are influenced by the church. and there were morals before 2000 years ago and the bible teachings so its not a valid point.
80sU2isBest said:
Where did your mother get her morals? Where did society get its' morals?
VintagePunk said:
evolutionary psychology points toward a combination of inherency, along with the passing down of certain qualities/beliefs from generation to generation that suit the specific culture.
A_Wanderer said:Those virtues seem to be the products of romanticised romanticised Christendom but western thought predates Christianity and threads such individualism are consistent markers.
Rationalism, empiricism and humanism seem to be the virtues of the modern age and they do depart from those professed so intently in Christianity. I take exception to the idea that faith is a critical virtue in that it entails a willfull ignorance - acceptance in the wholesale absence of evidence - and I can't see how that is to be desired or aspired to.
Regardless of what you believe in, you must have faith. As a lover of terribly fast cars I think this sums it up best for me.All the strength and force of man comes from his faith in things unseen. He who believes is strong; he who doubts is weak. Strong convictions precede great actions. The man strongly possessed of an idea is the master of all who are uncertain or wavering. Clear, deep, living convictions rule the world.
-- James Freeman Clarke
Faith and doubt both are needed - not as antagonists, but working side by side to take us around the unknown curve. --Lillian Smith
VintagePunk said:
Like I posted in another thread, evolutionary psychology points toward a combination of inherency, along with the passing down of certain qualities/beliefs from generation to generation that suit the specific culture.
AEON said:
Please forgive us "skeptics" that don't want to put all our moral eggs into this wet paper basket.
1stepcloser said:I wish Bill Hicks was still alive
I miss Hicks all the time.You ever noticed how people who believe in Creationism look really unevolved? You ever noticed that? Eyes real close together, eyebrow ridges, big furry hands and feet.
"I believe God created me in one day"
Yeah, looks liked He rushed it.
martha said:
You are consistent in this thread, I'll give you that. A few quotes from other people, and that's all the opinion you have. Nothing from you yourself that can be discussed, no personal thoughts, just pithy quotes from the past.
martha said:
And yet that basket hasn't doen too badly for the rest of the unChristian world, has it?
AEON said:
I suppose the 20 million Russians that were killed under Stalin might think it has.