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Old 07-03-2007, 04:16 PM   #21
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Originally posted by jay canseco
We live in a world where ignorance can be empowering. How sad.
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Old 07-03-2007, 04:42 PM   #22
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Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.
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Old 07-03-2007, 04:51 PM   #23
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Re: He became straight

Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
How a 'gay rights' leader became straight

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: July 3, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern


By Michael Glatze


Homosexuality came easy to me, because I was already weak.



That's probably one of the most offensive things I've ever read.
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Old 07-03-2007, 04:54 PM   #24
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3 former leaders of ex-gay ministry apologize

They cite psychological harm they caused gays as the ministry, Exodus International, meets in Irvine.

By Rebecca Trounson, Times Staff
June 28, 2007

Three former leaders of Exodus International, often described as the nation's largest ex-gay ministry, publicly apologized Wednesday for the harm they said their efforts had caused many gays and lesbians who believed the group's message that sexual orientation could be changed through prayer.

Speaking at a Hollywood news conference, the former leaders of the interdenominational Christian organization said they had acted sincerely in their years of work with Exodus. But they said they had all, over time, become disillusioned with the group's ideas and concerned about what they described as the wrenching human toll of such gay conversion efforts.

The news event, in a courtyard outside an office of the Los Angeles Gay & Lesbian Center, was timed to coincide with the opening of Exodus' annual conference, which is being held this week at Concordia University in Irvine. A competing "ex-gay survivor" convention is to begin Friday at UC Irvine.


The former leaders from Exodus cast its work in grim terms.

"Some who heard our message were compelled to try to change an integral part of themselves, bringing harm to themselves and their families," the three, including former Exodus co-founder Michael Bussee, said in a joint written statement presented at the news conference. "Although we acted in good faith, we have since witnessed the isolation, shame, fear and loss of faith that this message creates."

Now a licensed family therapist in Riverside, Bussee left Exodus in 1979 after he fell in love with a man who was a fellow ex-gay counselor with the group. He speaks out frequently against ex-gay therapies.

"God's love and forgiveness does indeed change people," said Bussee, who remains an evangelical Christian. "It changed me. It just didn't make me straight."

Others speaking at Wednesday's news conference included Jeremy Marks, former president of Exodus International Europe, and Darlene Bogle, the founder and former director of Paraklete Ministries, an Exodus referral agency based in Hayward, Calif.

All three said they had known people who had tried to change their sexual orientation with the help of the group but had failed, often becoming depressed or even suicidal as a result.

"We are committed Christians, but we're still gay," said Marks, who heads Courage UK, a gay-affirming evangelical ministry based in England.

Among those at the news conference was the Rev. Mel White, founder and president of a faith-based gay rights group called Soulforce. White, who was the ghostwriter for the Rev. Jerry Falwell's autobiography and later came out as gay, praised the former Exodus leaders.

"It's a major moment, a paradigm shift," White said. "They're saying this doesn't work, and that's incredibly important."

The Exodus meeting is expected to attract about 1,000 people, Chambers said. Chambers, who is married and has children, said he and other current Exodus officials are careful to warn those who seek help that such a path is not easy.

Sexual orientation "isn't a light switch that you can switch on and off," he said.
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Old 07-03-2007, 04:59 PM   #25
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Originally posted by deep
Good article!! Mel White's story is amazing. I still can't believe what he had to go through. He is one of Philip Yancey and his wife's best friends. Yancey has a whole chapter about him in "What's So Amazing About Grace". I would say that it really was a pivotal moment in me changing the prejudices and ignorances I used to have against homosexuals. I still struggle sometimes with the Biblical passages on homosexuality, but ultimately I have to remember how things may have been translated improperly, and I have no business looking at someone else's life. If he/she feels they have peace with God, I have NO business questioning that even a little bit.
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:01 PM   #26
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Re: He became straight

Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
So that is Michael Glatze

Who is the woman?
Does she support him? his beliefs?

or

Does she know what fruit
his teachings will bear?
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:01 PM   #27
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl
Yeah, I know someone who became straight, too. After leading an openly gay life for many years, AIDS and the Christian church scared the shit out of him. So he became straight. He married a woman and had a child. He hates his wife and women in general and never misses an opportunity to put her down in public. He's angry, hateful, resentful, critical, drinks too much, and goes to church on Sunday to repent. They've not shared a bed since their daughter was conceived (she's 16 now) and when you ask her what daddy does for a living she answers, "I don't know. Mom and I don't know. We never see him. He has some kind of secret life." They've been "together" now for 25 years. It's so beautiful how he was able to turn his life around. Praise the Lord.
Wait, do you mean Praise the Lord that he was able to become straight or go back to being gay? I didn't understand that part.
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:04 PM   #28
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Originally posted by Sloane Peterson


Wait, do you mean Praise the Lord that he was able to become straight or go back to being gay? I didn't understand that part.
I believe she was being sarcastic. She was basically trying to say "Praise the Lord" sarcastically that this guy has ruined his life, his wife, and his daughter's because of the teaching of the Ex gay movement or whatever they're calling it now. Sorry to speak for you joyful girl; I wasn't sure if you were still here! If I'm completely off,
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:05 PM   #29
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Originally posted by Sloane Peterson


Wait, do you mean Praise the Lord that he was able to become straight or go back to being gay? I didn't understand that part.
She was being sarcastic. Some people have the ignorant belief that God and Christ were against homosexuality.
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:12 PM   #30
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I do believe some people are genetically disposed at birth or otherwise to be gay.

I do believe that some people are confused (not in a deragotory way), asexual or bisexual. Some of these people kind of switch back and forth, with no real preference or orientation.

I believe that any kind of major emotional experience, or change in life direction (say religious) could easily move this group one direction or another.

I can and does happen.

Is it God? Sure. In some cases. Is it their mind? Sure, in some cases. Is it peer pressure? Sure, in some cases. Is it just them and who they are? Yes.

Although Christ didn't explicity come out against homosexuality, he did support the tenants of most of the OT. We all know that many writers/prophets of the OT explicitly came out against homosexuality.

Of course Paul, also supported these writers/prophets, and explicitly came out against homosexuality in the NT.

I guess that's about as far as the Bible takes it. The rest is up to you!
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:17 PM   #31
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Originally posted by U2isthebest


I believe she was being sarcastic. She was basically trying to say "Praise the Lord" sarcastically that this guy has ruined his life, his wife, and his daughter's because of the teaching of the Ex gay movement or whatever they're calling it now. Sorry to speak for you joyful girl; I wasn't sure if you were still here! If I'm completely off,
You're close! This guy actually isn't part of any ex-gay brainwashing movement. He simply was afraid of getting AIDS in the early 80s and "decided" not to be gay anymore, and he identifies himself as a Christian. He is not on any crusade to make gays straight or anything (seeing as how it's been sooo successful for him and all...), nor does he even speak about his once very open gayness. He simply went back in the closet and closed the door, and lives a total lie.

The "Praise the Lord" comment was, yes, sarcastic, because in the article Diamond posted, the guy claims turning to God can make gays straight, and I'm saying yes, I've seen this up close and personal and um, sorry, it's a crock of shit. I knew him before, and I know him now, and he's as gay and closeted as the day is long. We're talking a particular kind of stereotypically gay. I mean, a mean flaming queen.
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:19 PM   #32
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Originally posted by MadelynIris


Although Christ didn't explicity come out against homosexuality, he did support the tenants of most of the OT.
And dispelled and counteracted many as well.

Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris

We all know that many writers/prophets of the OT explicitly came out against homosexuality.

Of course Paul, also supported these writers/prophets, and explicitly came out against homosexuality in the NT.

Here's a great website:

http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template...&ContentID=583
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Old 07-03-2007, 07:09 PM   #33
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What did you think of the article, diamond? I'm curious.

Glatze was quoted in passing in an article about gay youth issues in TIME a couple years back, which may or may not have foreshadowed his present discontents:
Quote:
Because he routinely sees young gays on MTV or even at school, a 14-year-old may now feel comfortable telling friends that he likes other boys, but that doesn't mean he is ready to enfold himself in a gay identity. "Today so many kids who are gay, they don't like Cher. They aren't part of the whole subculture," says Michael Glatze, 30, editor in chief of YGA magazine. "They feel like they belong in their faith, in their families."

"Increasingly, these kids are like straight kids," says Savin-Williams. "Straight kids don't define themselves by sexuality, even though sexuality is a huge part of who they are. Of course they want to have sex, but they don't say, 'It is what I am.'" He believes young gays are moving toward a "postgay" identity. "Just because they're gay, they don't have to march in a parade. Part of it is political. Part is personal, developmental."

The political part is what worries Glatze. "I don't think the gay movement understands the extent to which the next generation just wants to be normal kids. The people who are getting that are the Christian right," he says. Indeed, several of those I met at the Exodus event had come not because they thought it would make them straight or even because they are particularly fervent Christians. Instead, they were there because they find something empty about gay culture--a feeling that Exodus exploits with frequent declamations about gays' supposed promiscuity and intemperance. "I'm just not attracted to the gay lifestyle, toward gay people--I've never felt a kinship with them," says Manuel Lopez, a lapsed Catholic and University of Chicago grad student who went to the Exodus meeting. "There's a certain superficiality in gay attachments--musicals, fashion ... I do think it's a happier life being straight."
Personally, I've never known any gay people whose "attachments" were based on musicals, fashion and Cher--though I'm sure they exist; plenty of straight people's "attachments" seem to be based on mutual pop culture consumption of various kinds after all, so it'd only make sense. I don't see what that has to do with what kinds of bodies you're attracted to though.

The yearning to 'just be a normal kid' can be a horribly painful one (not least because it can be so chimerical, as 'abnormal' kids of many types can attest), but then part of growing up is coming to terms with which parts of yourself are worth feeling guilt over and which ones aren't. The basic fact of that will never change.

As far as the present article,
Quote:
We believe, under the influence of homosexuality, that lust is not just acceptable, but a virtue. But there is no homosexual "desire" that is apart from lust.

That's why homosexual sex – and all other lust-based sex – is never satisfactory: It's a neurotic process rather than a natural, normal one.

Homosexuality allows us to avoid digging deeper, through superficiality and lust-inspired attractions – at least, as long as it remains "accepted" by law.
OK...so he feels strongly that 'superficial, lust-inspired' attractions are bad for you and stunt your human development. I can understand that; that's something I practice in my own life, and while I'd hardly want to legislate it, I can certainly relate to why someone would feel that way. But to me this sounds more like an argument for more visibility, more support, and more honoring of all the longterm committed gay relationships that exist out there. Absolutely, why shouldn't religious gay people be able to realize 'love, honor, cherish and obey' in their own lives?

That said, I can't make heads or tails of what exactly he thinks a healthy sexual relationship is supposed to look like, or what precisely he takes 'lust' to consist of. Love and commitment are wonderful things, they can certainly make sexual relationships more fulfilling, but in and of themselves they don't make you horny. If and when he does get involved with a woman, if he thinks that "pure" love, deep regard for and commitment to her is somehow going to be all it takes to make things run smoothly in the bedroom--well, good luck with that. Or perhaps it's just a case for morally mandatory permanent celibacy--but then, talk about unnatural...
Quote:
People caught in the act would rather stay "blissfully ignorant" by silencing truth and those who speak it, through antagonism, condemnation and calling them words like "racist"
...which makes me wonder what other sorts of 'truths' he has in mind here.
Quote:
A huge and vital difference exists between superficial admiration – of yourself, or others – and integral admiration. In loving ourselves fully, we no longer need anything from the "outside" world of lustful desire, recognition from others, or physical satisfaction. Our drives become intrinsic to our very essence, unbridled by neurotic distractions.

Lust takes us out of our bodies, "attaching" our psyche onto someone else's physical form.

...our normal state, of being perfectly united in all things, and divides us, causing us to forever pine for an outside physical object that we can never possess. Homosexual people – like all people – yearn for the mythical true love, which does actually exist.
Alcibiades! Is that really you?
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Old 07-03-2007, 07:13 PM   #34
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According to article being gay has become passe.

dbs
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Old 07-03-2007, 07:19 PM   #35
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I didn't realize homosexuality was regarded as a fad. Whaddya know.
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Old 07-03-2007, 07:19 PM   #36
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Originally posted by MadelynIris
Although Christ didn't explicity come out against homosexuality, he did support the tenants of most of the OT. We all know that many writers/prophets of the OT explicitly came out against homosexuality.

Of course Paul, also supported these writers/prophets, and explicitly came out against homosexuality in the NT.
False. Paul came out against the homosexual practices of that day. Today is a different type of homosexuality.
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Old 07-03-2007, 07:48 PM   #37
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I'm so befuddled by some of what's in this thread I don't even know how to respond.


Guess what folks the Bible is *gasp* not the literal truth!


I say that as a God loving Christian.
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Old 07-03-2007, 07:56 PM   #38
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Sure,
the bible is the tool for Genital Mutilation.

Sexuality is evil and must be repressed.

We need to have our sexuality circumcised,
cut out of our human bodies.
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Old 07-03-2007, 09:25 PM   #39
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Oh OK, I understand now. I thought the comment was sarcastic, but I just had to make sure.
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Old 07-03-2007, 09:50 PM   #40
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl
Yeah, I know someone who became straight, too. After leading an openly gay life for many years, AIDS and the Christian church scared the shit out of him. So he became straight. He married a woman and had a child. He hates his wife and women in general and never misses an opportunity to put her down in public. He's angry, hateful, resentful, critical, drinks too much, and goes to church on Sunday to repent. They've not shared a bed since their daughter was conceived (she's 16 now) and when you ask her what daddy does for a living she answers, "I don't know. Mom and I don't know. We never see him. He has some kind of secret life." They've been "together" now for 25 years. It's so beautiful how he was able to turn his life around. Praise the Lord.
Somehow I highly doubt he ever found God if he acts like that.
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