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Old 09-03-2009, 07:28 AM   #801
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Holy God, this man is genuinely STUPID.

Everyone who clapped at the end of that story is equally as stupid, and additionally is also too lazy to rub 2 brain cells together in an attempt to do even the most minor amount of critical thinking.

This is not just a sad social statement but an indictment of the American school system that it produces, on a large scale, people of this level of lazy thinking.

Grim.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:35 AM   #802
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yeah, whatever ... DEATH PANELS!!!!!
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:50 AM   #803
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The more and more I see clips like these, see the opposition in forums like this, and see that Glenn Beck had to basically do a how to protest show, the more I'm convinced this is purely mindless robotic partisanshit.

Glenn's TV show last week was basically "say this", "don't put this on your signs", and "don't say this" because he knows the world is laughing at his audience and how uninformed they are proving themselves to be.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:49 AM   #804
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This is not just a sad social statement but an indictment of the American school system that it produces, on a large scale, people of this level of lazy thinking.

Grim.
Maybe they were all home-schooled?
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Old 09-03-2009, 10:21 AM   #805
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yeah, whatever ... DEATH PANELS!!!!!
"DEATH PANELS!!!!!" is the new "NINE ELEVEN!!!!!"
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Old 09-03-2009, 12:50 PM   #806
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This is not just a sad social statement but an indictment of the American school system that it produces, on a large scale, people of this level of lazy thinking.

Grim.
It's astounding to me that common sense can be so easily shouted down by ignorance. How on Earth did these people get swindled into defending insurance companies?

It's also astounding that Obama and the Democrats have basically allowed it to happen for so long without taking this debate by the hands, giving it a good slap across the face and setting things straight.
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Old 09-03-2009, 01:58 PM   #807
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It's astounding to me that common sense can be so easily shouted down by ignorance. How on Earth did these people get swindled into defending insurance companies?

It's also astounding that Obama and the Democrats have basically allowed it to happen for so long without taking this debate by the hands, giving it a good slap across the face and setting things straight.
Agree strongly with all of this. It's mind boggling, isn't it?
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:07 PM   #808
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It's astounding to me that common sense can be so easily shouted down by ignorance. How on Earth did these people get swindled into defending insurance companies?

It's also astounding that Obama and the Democrats have basically allowed it to happen for so long without taking this debate by the hands, giving it a good slap across the face and setting things straight.
I think they just would rather still have the private health insurance companies finance their next campaigns than actually reform the health care system. It's sad, it's infuriating, it's disheartening, it's goddamn depressing, but that's what I see. It's been reported that Emmanual Rahm - who, judging from the few times I've seen him on TV, always seems about one second away from losing it, blowing a gasket, etc. - told the more liberal and/or progressive Democrats in congress to essentially shut up in a meeting. He's a blue dog, he probably genuinely doesn't want universal health care. And he's taking his orders from Obama, who probably agrees with the principle of universal healthcare but still wants the private insurance companies' money come 2012. And many of the Democrats in congress fall into one of those two categories as well - 'Blue Dog' or 'Want the money'. Or both. I mean, for all of these reasons, Obama never even tried to cut the private insurance companies out. They've been at the table, getting to ok every word of the bill. What does that tell you? And so Obama settled for the idea of a public option, but he doesn't even seem that confident or determined about that, and he and the administration are not doing a good job of calming the vocal minority down and maybe even winning some of them over. Whenever he talks about healthcare, he always seems like he's walking a tightrope, worrying more about making sure he's not pissing anyone off rather than about actually getting something done.

I'm really disappointed in Obama on this issue.
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:14 PM   #809
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It's astounding to me that common sense can be so easily shouted down by ignorance. How on Earth did these people get swindled into defending insurance companies?
Let me by clear about this. As a health professional I have to deal with the red tape, prior authorizations, drug formularies, diagnosis codes, paper work and way, way too much time spent of hold with insurance companies on a daily basis. It's frustrating for providers as well as patients. It has grown from a minor inconvenience when I graduated in '84 to a full-time part-of-the-job headache. No defender of insurance companies or the status quo I. In fact, I resent that I often become their de facto agent explaining patients policies and restrictions to them and breaking the bad news about uncovered services. Neither do I offer any excuses for insurance companies dropping patients over technicalities or some other nonsensical reason.

Actual consumer protection reform regarding pre-existing conditions, portability and coverage weaseling is badly needed. But so too is reform of the mandates that limit the types of coverage that companies can offer.

Actual tax code reform to begin severing the asinine practice of employer based insurance is needed.

Actual tort reform to eliminate frivolous lawsuits, outlandish rewards and defensive medicine is needed.

And pricing reform is needed to put purchasing power and cost awareness back into the hands of individuals so as to make informed choices rather than being insulated by cost-shifting, subsidies and third-party payers.

But excuse me for rejecting the idea that all the system needs is MORE bureaucracy, MORE politicization of the issue (Do we really need yet another "3rd rail" to demagogue?), MORE centralized decision making, MORE coverage mandates and MORE government controlled pricing -- when our current mess arises from the unintended consequences of government incrementally increasing, over the past 45 years, its purchasing of healthcare to the current 40% of all care and medicine in the country.

I too want to cover more people, more affordably. I just don't trust the architects of Amtrak, The Post Office, Ethanol subsidies, Medicare (need I go on?), to do it. My faith lies with the American people.
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:30 PM   #810
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Your grasp on healthcare is far reaching.
As is my knowledge in most things BVS. Thank you.

Now what did you really mean to say?
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:47 PM   #811
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MORE politicization of the issue (Do we really need yet another "3rd rail" to demagogue?)


but isn't this precisely what the GOP has done in order to harm Obama politically, and for no other reason? do you see anyone in the GOP who's committed to the type of reforms you have in mind? or do you, like me, simply see a party who suddenly smells blood in the water?
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:00 PM   #812
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Now what did you really mean to say?
Your grasp doesn't seem that strong and you're really reaching in order to try and defend your side, which to me just looks like the "no" party.
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:27 PM   #813
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But how many people who can't afford comprehensive coverage do you suppose are going to fork over for non-criticals like flu shots in the first place? Routine preventive care is the first casualty of that sort of model. I'm certain I wouldn't have wound up getting diagnosed with the genetic disorder I have as early in the symptomatic stage as I did, had I not been fortunate enough to have excellent comprehensive coverage (perk of working for a large university) by that point in time. Because my symptoms didn't seem particularly serious, they were annoying rather than disabling or painful, and besides, I was still 'young and healthy' (so far as anyone knew at the time), so why spend money we didn't have getting them checked out? Of course, even if I had gone ahead and paid out-of-pocket to have them checked out (which, in fact, by the end of the process would've easily met a high deductible--the MRIs, neurological workups etc.), then I'd still have been screwed once the diagnosis was made, because then I'd have a "pre-existing condition" in the eyes of any future insurer, while meanwhile high-deductible "catastrophic" would no longer be practicable, given the ongoing costs of monitoring and treating the condition.

I chose to buy my house, I chose to buy my car; I didn't get to choose my genes, and I could never afford to pay my own medical bills, let alone my dependents', if I hadn't been able to afford comprehensive coverage by the time fate decided I needed it. I know from corresponding online with other people with my condition--at least, the ones here in the US--that they haven't all been so lucky in their insurance situation: some are facing huge medical debts; some are unable to find an insurer who'll take them, because of how much they're going to cost; some have put off needed neurosurgery because their insurer won't cover their preferred neurosurgeon's costs (insisting on a neurosurgeon with experience in the specific operation you require can be expensive). And as far as I can tell, your response to situations like theirs seems to be, "It's your own damn fault for not having had both the money and the foresight to realize that something like this could happen and make sure you were covered." Unless I'm completely missing some implicit qualifications that were meant to follow from your ideas.
Well, actually you should be able to relate very well to my basic premise. One of the few things that has kept up with the rising cost of health in the country is college tuition. Well above the rate of inflation year after year for the past few decades. Why? Exploding demand relative to supply. And what fuels the demand to a great degree? Government intervention in the form of new tuition tax credits, various government loans, Pell grants and 529 plans. All of which have the unintended consequence of removing market forces from the pricing of tuition (how many dads can write a check for $45,000 every year for 4 - 6 years?) and hyper-inflating its cost. Pricing many people out of the market while bankrupting others. Sound familiar?

Dare I ask how many of the 45 million uninsured might have the money for a health insurance policy were it not for their college loan coming due?

And are we surprised that Obama's prescription for the problem is to demonize the wasteful, greedy insurance compa... sorry, banks and "switch the federal student loan system entirely to direct lending from the government."
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:31 PM   #814
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Let me by clear about this. As a health professional I have to deal with the red tape, prior authorizations, drug formularies, diagnosis codes, paper work and way, way too much time spent of hold with insurance companies on a daily basis. It's frustrating for providers as well as patients. It has grown from a minor inconvenience when I graduated in '84 to a full-time part-of-the-job headache. No defender of insurance companies or the status quo I. In fact, I resent that I often become their de facto agent explaining patients policies and restrictions to them and breaking the bad news about uncovered services. Neither do I offer any excuses for insurance companies dropping patients over technicalities or some other nonsensical reason.

Actual consumer protection reform regarding pre-existing conditions, portability and coverage weaseling is badly needed. But so too is reform of the mandates that limit the types of coverage that companies can offer.

Actual tax code reform to begin severing the asinine practice of employer based insurance is needed.

Actual tort reform to eliminate frivolous lawsuits, outlandish rewards and defensive medicine is needed.

And pricing reform is needed to put purchasing power and cost awareness back into the hands of individuals so as to make informed choices rather than being insulated by cost-shifting, subsidies and third-party payers.

But excuse me for rejecting the idea that all the system needs is MORE bureaucracy, MORE politicization of the issue (Do we really need yet another "3rd rail" to demagogue?), MORE centralized decision making, MORE coverage mandates and MORE government controlled pricing -- when our current mess arises from the unintended consequences of government incrementally increasing, over the past 45 years, its purchasing of healthcare to the current 40% of all care and medicine in the country.

I too want to cover more people, more affordably. I just don't trust the architects of Amtrak, The Post Office, Ethanol subsidies, Medicare (need I go on?), to do it. My faith lies with the American people.
But like BVS said, nobody on either side of Congress is talking about those kinds of reforms, and even if they were, those kinds of reforms would never come to pass because the private insurance companies would have to cooperate in order for them to pass, but they would never cooperate with those kinds of reforms, because in order to cooperate with those kinds of reforms, they would have to, for one minute in their lives, put the well-being of people above their margin of profit. And they won't. And that's why they can't be trusted.
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:36 PM   #815
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Dare I ask how many of the 45 million uninsured might have the money for a health insurance policy were it not for their college loan coming due?
Ask it; find out. Then explain to them that when your reforms are put into place, they'll be able to afford health care. Until then, they're screwed.


And what about the other coupla mill who simply can't afford it? How long should they hold it till you get what you want?


And you know, you really didn't address her main point AT ALL. But I didn't expect you to deal with a real life situation, not a hypothetical one.
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:57 PM   #816
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Well, actually you should be able to relate very well to my basic premise. One of the few things that has kept up with the rising cost of health in the country is college tuition. Well above the rate of inflation year after year for the past few decades. Why? Exploding demand relative to supply. And what fuels the demand to a great degree? Government intervention in the form of new tuition tax credits, various government loans, Pell grants and 529 plans. All of which have the unintended consequence of removing market forces from the pricing of tuition (how many dads can write a check for $45,000 every year for 4 - 6 years?) and hyper-inflating its cost. Pricing many people out of the market while bankrupting others. Sound familiar?

Dare I ask how many of the 45 million uninsured might have the money for a health insurance policy were it not for their college loan coming due?

And are we surprised that Obama's prescription for the problem is to demonize the wasteful, greedy insurance compa... sorry, banks and "switch the federal student loan system entirely to direct lending from the government."
Once again your analogy fails because the concept of college is knowingly there from day one, cancer isn't? Military, scholarships, etc are always options to pay for college. I've never heard of anyone joining the Army to help pay for their pre-existing condition.

I can understand why you edited it... I don't think but 1% of the population would consider insurance fat cats "the American people". Yet how much of the percentage are arguing like they are? Like I said, it's the biggest con of this whole debate, it's pretty funny from where I'm sitting.
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:12 PM   #817
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This guy explains it well, guilt trips don't work well in America:



Under the current proposed Govt plan, Cancer patients will have less of a chance of survival.

We're not like other countries, however most other countries want to become more like us.

Do the math.

<>
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:21 PM   #818
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This guy explains it well, guilt trips don't work well in America:



Under the current proposed Govt plan, Cancer patients will have less of a chance of survival.

We're not like other countries, however most other countries want to become more like us.

Do the math.

<>



posts like this make me appreciate INDY. for real.
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:25 PM   #819
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posts like this make me appreciate INDY. for real.


I'd just like to add that it must not be easy defending your point when probably 90% of the thread is arguing against you, and even though I vehemently disagree with you, I do appreciate your posts on the subject, Indy.
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:36 PM   #820
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but isn't this precisely what the GOP has done in order to harm Obama politically, and for no other reason?
Red herring.

The votes are completely there for a bill, even some GOP votes. If Dems can't pass a health care bill now, with this Congress, when will they ever? The Blue Dogs don't want to hurt Obama. I don't think my Maine senators want to hurt him either.

The president hasn't been convincing, or specific. That's a lot of the problem. Another chance on Wednesday night.
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