Justice for Jessica........

[Diemen]

Originally posted by melon


I look at it this way. We "judge" people, based on what we can "observe." Since we are not supernatural, we can only observe the concrete--actions and spoken/written words.

We know, however, that we have internal thoughts, which cannot be observed by the outside world, and, as such, cannot be "judged" by mankind. God, by definition, though, is able to see us both internally and externally, so the true judgment of intolerable people like those on Death Row can only be reserved by God. If many Christians are to state that we are judged solely by our faith and not by our works, then we must accept that even the most despicable of people can have such faith and enter heaven.

From a theological POV, this makes the death penalty an act of incredible hatred, as someone stuck in prison without possibility of parole is always with "the possibility" of finding his or her faith until the day they die. By prematurely ending these lives, we might be cutting short the chances for these individuals to get that faith; and, as such, we are "playing God." As for whether we, ourselves, are going to be judged for killing these people, potentially depriving them the chance to "find God"? I guess we'll find out someday.

I love it when you get theological on us.

[toscano]

Originally posted by diamond


Christians don't insist on killing, murdering pedophiles do.

And yet george bush has murdered who knows how many countless thousands of children in Iraq because..........

Originally posted by diamond


Chrisrians insist on executing all facets of the law which include letting a sentenced murdering pedophile be executed, which you have a problem with.

I missed that part of Bible Study growing up. Are there not as many, if not more "Christian" denominations who are opposed to the DP than are FOR it ? (Catholic, Episcopal, Methodist, etc.) Are they "less christian" than you ?

[BVS]

Originally posted by Diemen


According to polling data, most Christians in this country think Jesus was white.

You mean he wasn't a white male Republican who believed in tax cuts for the rich, screwing the poor, pre-emptive strikes, second class citizens, or establishing a theocracy? Damn.

[A_Wanderer]

Originally posted by diamond


That's usually the path they take.

And I think a person robbing a 7-11 vs. a person molester, essentailly a person robbing a child of his virtue is a far worse crime.

A robber can make restitution by giving the money back; robbing a child of his or her innocence- one cannot restore.

Child molesters should be locked up 3-4 times longer than the way the current penal system is set up.

I always find it quite telling in this thread that that secularists thinkers have a disproportionate amount of symphathy for child molesters and oppose the death penalty.

They blur the lines between right and wrong, one can only call them on their ill placed logic, and point out to them the majority of Americans opposed theie pathetic line of thinking.


dbs

Yes, that pesky logic is what seperates believers from infidels. Nobody here has defended paedophiles, the concept of religiously justified excecution is based on the premise that the perpetrator will suffer in an afterlife. This would be an afterlife that in all probability does not exist, thus rendering the "ultimate punishment" a mere release, they aren't going to hell for what they have done and killing them doesn't hold a candle to locking them away for decades in terms of vengence.

Justifying why a paedophile rapist needs to be punished is plain to see in the harm that they have done to another human being. But your dichotomy between faith and unbelief is predicated on the idea that in the absence of belief people will do whatever they want to other people because theres no reason not to.

[A_Wanderer]

Originally posted by diamond


They were arrested for it because they broke the law, regardless of their Church affliation or attendence.

I feel like I'm dialoguing with a 12 year old.

You're back on Ignore.

dbs

They were arrested because the secular system of law enforcement was able to go after rapists that were protected by their religious organisation. No childs behind left.

[toscano]

Originally posted by Diemen



According to polling data, most Christians in this country think Jesus was white.

Well, may have been caucasian, but then again that doesn't mean he was white.

[Vincent Vega]

Originally posted by A_Wanderer
They were arrested because the secular system of law enforcement was able to go after rapists that were protected by their religious organisation. No childs behind left.

Right, I remember the letter telling all priests, bishops, etc. not to report any priest, bishop, etc. they know has molested a child, coming from the Vatican.

Now, if they are no Christians, who then is it?

[deep]

Originally posted by toscano


Well, may have been caucasian, but then again that doesn't mean he was white.

I know which one I see when I pray.

[Vincent Vega]

Originally posted by toscano


Well, may have been caucasian, but then again that doesn't mean he was white.

That's how anthropologists have stated he might have looked like, going from where he was born, and where his parents came from.

OK, deep beat me to it.

[deep]

No thanks

we don't want New Coke

old Coke is number one, why change to a new product?

[toscano]

Originally posted by Vincent Vega




That's how anthropologists have stated he might have looked like, going from where he was born, and where his parents came from.

OK, deep beat me to it.

OK, hands up everyone who thinks caucasian = white ?

[indra]

Originally posted by toscano

OK, hands up everyone who thinks caucasian = white ?

I bet that most of the people who voted in that poll do equate caucasian with white.

[JCOSTER]

Originally posted by unico
Pro-dp people...what are your opinions of the list of countries that have gov't sanctioned executions that I posted earlier? What do you think this says about the U.S. as a developed "super-power" of a nation? How do you feel that the U.S. grouped with a number of countries which we recognize have corrupt politics and governance?

What I'm getting at here, is I think the DP is archaic, and has no purpose in policy. It seems as though many other developed nations agree. Perhaps there was a time for it, I don't know, I didn't live in that era. I can only speak from my experience in modern times. But now, there is no need. Really.

This, environmental laws, and many others, seem to be areas where the rest of the world "gets it" and the U.S. falls far behind. I think it is a damn shame.

This isn't about religion. This is about PROGRESS, and bettering the U.S. society and the world.

And for the record, NOBODY here that is anti-death penalty is sympathetic towards criminals of any kind. That seems to be yet another misconception of pro-dp people.

And JC, I know you stated earlier that our minds might change if it were our child, and I don't think that is a fair assessment. If my parents were raped and killed, I'd be pissed off as well. But I would not want to be responsible for the death of their killer. Isn't there enough death already? It won't bring my parents back. It won't make me feel closure of any kind. I personally wish Cho hadn't killed himself. I know that is different, because he took his own life. But I think it is still a related example of a killer who will never learn his lesson. Who will never be brought to justice. I miss my student dearly. But I wish he were alive so he can atone for what he did, and see the pain that he caused, and live with that burden for the rest of his life. Executing criminals who have killed somebody is letting them get away with it, because there is nothing to be learned.



And I'm having a hard time seeing that people are still pro-DP after seeing Kenneth's Foster's case. I mean, come the fuck on. It is obviously a flawed system.

Mia, I'm just saying that after I had my children, my views and perspectives on certain issues had changed. Its a totally different when you think you have it all figured and then you have kids and you have to think of them as well.

In the Foster case I don't believe that man should get the dp.

[JCOSTER]

Originally posted by martha
unico, clearly you are soft on child molesters.

No she's not.

[JCOSTER]

Originally posted by Diemen


According to polling data, most Christians in this country believed that African Americans were an inferior race and didn't deserve equality.

According to polling data, most Christians in this country believed that women shouldn't vote, shouldn't compete with men in the marketplace, and didn't deserve equality.

According to polling data, most Christians in this country think Jesus was white.

I do believe opposite in what you've stated above, everyone in this world is equal. And I am a christian. If a brother or sister is in need you help them. etc.....

[unico]

Originally posted by JCOSTER



Mia, I'm just saying that after I had my children, my views and perspectives on certain issues had changed. Its a totally different when you think you have it all figured and then you have kids and you have to think of them as well.

I see what you are saying, since they are your own off-spring. However, as someone who will probably not have children, I don't think that makes my perspective on this any less valid or inexperienced. A psychopath took the life of my own student, as well as many others. Whenever somebody else takes the life of someone you know, care for, and/or love, that person has created a hole in your life. Nothing will ever fill that void. Not even the killer's execution. I'd feel the same if my parents faced the same feat, or my brother, or my friends, or my relatives, or anybody else in my life. I assume a certain amount of responsibility in all of my relationships.

[Irvine511]

i'll go out on a limb and say that if someone did this to my child, i'd probably want to kill them. and maybe i would try to kill them. and maybe i would be successful.

but that doesn't mean that i support the death penalty.

[Vincent Vega]

Originally posted by toscano


OK, hands up everyone who thinks caucasian = white ?

Sorry, wasn't intending to say it was wrong that he was caucasian. Just show some proof that he rather was black than white. The quote was a bit unlucky.

[yolland]

Originally posted by unico
I see what you are saying, since they are your own off-spring. However, as someone who will probably not have children, I don't think that makes my perspective on this any less valid or inexperienced. A psychopath took the life of my own student, as well as many others. Whenever somebody else takes the life of someone you know, care for, and/or love, that person has created a hole in your life. Nothing will ever fill that void. Not even the killer's execution. I'd feel the same if my parents faced the same feat, or my brother, or my friends, or my relatives, or anybody else in my life. I assume a certain amount of responsibility in all of my relationships.

To be fair, as a parent (who is also against the death penalty), I do agree with JCOSTER that the thought of certain things happening to one's children simply is more wrenching than the thought of them happening to one's parents, siblings, spouse, students, best friend or whatever. It's not a question of "my offspring, mine mine mine" or loving them more than anyone else; it's the unique and lasting and often terrifying sense of total accountability that comes with having a child (or should, anyway). The awful guilt of not having been there to protect your child in their worst moment, and the way that would intertwine with the feelings of rage, grief, shock, and emptiness you'd feel over the brutal death of anyone important to you, would quite literally be the worst emotional torment I can possibly imagine. So I do understand what it means to say that having children affects your view of these things--there's a whole new dimension to your awareness of human vulnerability that wasn't there before.

However, from a systemic perspective--which is really the only one it makes sense to analyze capital punishment from--I oppose the DP because the reality is that mistakes can be, have been and continue to be made, whether that's due to bad evidence, bad legal conduct, racism or bad laws, and this is simply not an acceptable arena to make mistakes with. On a personal level I feel absolutely no concern for what happens to John Couey himself, so long as it involves permanent exclusion from society, though I do find the idea of strangers rejoicing in executions repulsive.

I also agree that both the sentencing and rehabilitation of child molesters and the sentencing of child murderers in this country are often woefully inadequate, but unfortunately that's a separate issue and probably not one we can achieve much of a substantive discussion on in here, as it doesn't really pertain to broad general principles that can be analyzed and debated but rather the patchwork quilt of relevant laws and legal procedures across the country and all the loopholes it has in it.




And all this blather about whether true Christians molest children and what race Jesus belonged to, etc. is absolutely bonkers and has no place in this thread.

[Vincent Vega]

Originally posted by Irvine511
i'll go out on a limb and say that if someone did this to my child, i'd probably want to kill them. and maybe i would try to kill them. and maybe i would be successful.

but that doesn't mean that i support the death penalty.

Who wouldn't want that?