Is Palin failin' ? or OMG McCain wins with Palin !! pt. 2 - Page 35 - U2 Feedback

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Old 09-12-2008, 12:21 PM   #681
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Not only do you disagree with the current US position, but also the rest of NATO.


It was the Clinton administration that rightly started and supported the expansion of NATO. To not have done so would have allowed a potentially aggressive Russia to reimpose its control over Eastern Europe. Europe's security has been increased by NATO expansion. It would have defied "elementary strategic logic" to not have taken the opportunity to expand both the EU and NATO into Eastern Europe while Russia was weaker in the 1990s in order to prepare for the possible direction that Russia has unfortunately appeared to have taken today.

The United States would never compromise European security simply for the sake of having Russian cooperation on Iran and North Korea. Russia's ability to seriously impact both issues is limited, especially when compared to China on North Korea.

NATO has not moved any combat units into any of the Eastern European countries that now have NATO membership. The idea that NATO is a threat to Russia is simply absurd as any review of military force totals for NATO and Russia will show.


In addition, the small number of NATO countries that objected to starting the process of admitting Geogia and Ukraine this year did so not because of any need for Russian strategic cooperation on North Korea and Iran, but because they disputed that Georgia and Ukraine had met the requirements for NATO membership at this time. But no NATO country is actually against the future membership of Georgia and Ukraine in NATO at some point in the future.


except that this is not the mid-1990s.

your post is so lacking in nuance that it's difficult to know where to begin ... i'll just start by saying that Georgia is not part of Europe, neither is Armenia, and we're going to have to deal with the fact that Russia has oil, and therefore money, and therefore it is going to seek to expand it's sphere of influence.

however, Russia still remains incapable of marching into Kiev. Russia isn't going to Tblisi because Vladimir Putin, unlike the leader of the United States, is apparently shrewd enough to recognize that military occupations of foreign territories have high costs and scarce benefits. so it's less about supporting a future NATO membership and more that the hysterics of McCain who would use such membership not for the protection of Georgians but to specifically antagonize and goad Russia into feeling threatened. so, really, what McCain is talking about isn't a serious policy but just irresponsible posturing in order to scare up some votes by trying to recast Russia as the Soviet Union and Putin as Kruschev. and it misses the point -- it's cooperation on Iran, as well as preventing the spread of "loose nukes" that's in actual American interests right now. the long term membership of Georgia into NATO isn't terribly relevant to the present situation, and rushing Georgia into membership is, as i said, irresponsible posturing.
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Old 09-12-2008, 12:23 PM   #682
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You could actually make the same statement about Afghanistan.



a standard STING non-answer/dodge/attempt to change the subject/mindless equivocation!

Sarah Palin remains a liar. or just uninformed.

but i'll give her the benefit of the doubt. i bet she actually knows that no one in Iraq attacked New York on 9/11 and she was just trying to score some cheap political points.

or maybe not. she has never shown much interest in foreign policy and heard about the surge on the news. so maybe she does think that Saddam Hussein attacked us on 9-11.
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Old 09-12-2008, 12:26 PM   #683
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Classic quote by McCain from the primaries:

Quote:
"I have had a strong and a long relationship on national security, I've been involved in every national crisis that this nation has faced since Beirut, I understand the issues, I understand and appreciate the enormity of the challenge we face from radical Islamic extremism," the Senator declared. "I am prepared. I am prepared. I need no on-the-job training. I wasn't a mayor for a short period of time. I wasn't a governor for a short period of time."
McCain Pre-Palin: Mayors And Governors Can't Handle National Security
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Old 09-12-2008, 12:28 PM   #684
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and this is different from the anti-Obama Biden ad ... how exactly?
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Old 09-12-2008, 12:29 PM   #685
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and this is different from the anti-Obama Biden ad ... how exactly?
Precisely.

But hey if you want to dig up random quotes from the primaries, then two can play that game.
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Old 09-12-2008, 12:31 PM   #686
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Precisely.

But hey if you want to dig up random quotes from the primaries, then two can play that game.


JOHN MCCAIN IS AN HONORABLE MAN WHO IS A STRAIGHT TALKER.

JOHN MCCAIN IS AN HONORABLE MAN WHO IS A STRAIGHT TALKER.

JOHN MCCAIN IS AN HONORABLE MAN WHO IS A STRAIGHT TALKER.

JOHN MCCAIN IS AN HONORABLE MAN WHO IS A STRAIGHT TALKER.

JOHN MCCAIN IS AN HONORABLE MAN WHO IS A STRAIGHT TALKER.

JOHN MCCAIN IS AN HONORABLE MAN WHO IS A STRAIGHT TALKER.
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Old 09-12-2008, 12:42 PM   #687
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So the implication of the wolf video is what? That this was for sport?
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Old 09-12-2008, 12:49 PM   #688
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Palin 2007:

Quote:
"I'm not a doom and gloom environmentalist like Al Gore blaming the changes in our climate on human activity."
Palin 2008:

Quote:
"I believe that man's activities certainly can be contributing to the issue of global warming, climate change."
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Old 09-12-2008, 12:55 PM   #689
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Those were gay wolves anyway.


nope.. they were female wolves that wanted abortions.


so much for abortion rights for wolves..


I think we should protest!
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Old 09-12-2008, 12:57 PM   #690
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except that this is not the mid-1990s.

your post is so lacking in nuance that it's difficult to know where to begin ... i'll just start by saying that Georgia is not part of Europe, neither is Armenia, and we're going to have to deal with the fact that Russia has oil, and therefore money, and therefore it is going to seek to expand it's sphere of influence.
Your correct in saying that Armenia is not technically apart of Europe, but Georgia definitely is apart of Europe. The Northern part of the country is within Europe while the south is apart of Asia. Not sure why you keep on bringing up Armenia as it was Ukraine and Georgia that were under consideration for NATO membership.

Russian strengths are not a reason to stop NATO expansion, they are a reason to expand NATO.


Quote:
however, Russia still remains incapable of marching into Kiev.
Really? Care to explain?

Kiev is actually only 130 miles from the Russian border. The Russian armed forces have 36 divisions active, 54 divisions when fully mobilized. They have nearly 2,000 combat aircraft.

Ukraine by comparison has less than 10 divisions, only 350 combat aircraft, and their equipment is primarly much older than what the Russians currently have in their active divisions.

If Russia was determined to they could indeed march into Kiev, which is why Ukraine is doing everything it can to become a member of NATO.


McCain/Palin and the rest of NATO all believe that Georgia and Ukraine should be admitted to NATO at some point in the future regardless of what Russia has to say.

Ironically, it sounds like you and Putin have a lot in common on these issues.
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Old 09-12-2008, 01:00 PM   #691
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If Russia was determined to they could indeed march into Kiev,

but they're not. there's no reason for it. the costs would be enormous. Russia is not the Soviet Union, it is not the reconstituting Russian Empire.

it's an autocratic petro-state that isn't stupid.

it must be dealt with by someone who understands the world, understands nuance, is calm, cool, collected, who isn't going to think Putin's a swell guy because he wears a cross the first time he meets a gullible born-again like Bush, and by someone who doesn't write hysterical op-eds the day after Russia throws some of it's weight around.

or maybe you'd prefer to invoke the Bush Doctrine here and take care of Russia before they can threaten and dominate the world's oil supplies. you might be right in that Putin is a threat to global peace and a threat to his neighbors and region. how many WMDs does Russia have that are unaccounted for?

there is no other choice but to invade Russia and overthrow Putin and bring democracy to Russia. it wouldn’t cost us much. they’ve got enough oil to pay for their own reconstruction. and i'm sure we’d probably be greeted as liberators. i bet it would be a cakewalk.
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Old 09-12-2008, 01:13 PM   #692
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I was taken aback by this ad by a 527.

Showed it to my 59 year old father, who has hunted throughout his life. His first response was "shooting animals from planes in the snow isn't hunting" and his second was "this woman is sick." Then he said he was going to walk his beloved dog.

I remember when Cheney almost murdered someone while on a hunt a few years back, a number of real hunters pointed out that the activity Cheney and his group was engaged in wasn't proper hunting, it was basically a duck shoot where even someone with no co-ordination at all will bag likely a few dozen birds.

I honestly think neo-conservatism is a pathological or psychopathic disorder of some sort, a lot of these neo-con types are literally criminal psychopaths and seem to revel in activities such as killing animals, invading small countries, etc.
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Old 09-12-2008, 01:16 PM   #693
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but they're not. there's no reason for it. the costs would be enormous. Russia is not the Soviet Union, it is not the reconstituting Russian Empire.

it's an autocratic petro-state that isn't stupid.

it must be dealt with by someone who understands the world, understands nuance, is calm, cool, collected, who isn't going to think Putin's a swell guy because he wears a cross the first time he meets a gullible born-again like Bush, and by someone who doesn't write hysterical op-eds the day after Russia throws some of it's weight around.
Ironically, the whole reason why Biden is on the ticket is because Obama clearly does not get it when it comes to Russia. The events in Georgia over the past 3 months have proven McCain's stance on Russia to be correct.

Oh, and your point earlier was not that the Russian's would not march into Kiev, but that they couldn't even if they tried. It is open to debate whether or not Russia under their current leadership wants to reimpose control on states of the former Soviet Union and rebuild the Russian Empire. Ukraine has looked at this national security question and has decided that they need to get into NATO as soon as possible. All of the Eastern European countries are united in supporting Ukraine and Georgia's membership into NATO.

Everyone in the NATO alliance recognizes that Russia still poses a threat to Europe and the only thing that is stupid is to ignore that and not prepare for it. The likely hood of Russian expansionism will drop if the US and NATO remain firm and don't attempt to appease Russia by letting it have some special sphere of influence in regards to the independent countries of the former Soviet Union.
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Old 09-12-2008, 01:21 PM   #694
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Ironically, the whole reason why Biden is on the ticket is because Obama clearly does not get it when it comes to Russia. The events in Georgia over the past 3 months have proven McCain's stance on Russia to be correct.
Most serious observers believe that Georgia was the aggressor.


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Everyone in the NATO alliance recognizes that Russia still poses a threat to Europe and the only thing that is stupid is to ignore that and not prepare for it. The likely hood of Russian expansionism will drop if the US and NATO remain firm and don't attempt to appease Russia by letting it have some special sphere of influence in regards to the independent countries of the former Soviet Union.


Russia already has a sphere of influence in that part of the world, and the whole 'US as world policeman meme' is a busted flush. You might as well accustom yourself to these basic facts, as they ain't changing any time soon.
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Old 09-12-2008, 01:42 PM   #695
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Most serious observers believe that Georgia was the aggressor.
Name a few who are not anti-NATO expansion, Putin Appeasers, or Russians.

Plus if you take a look at Russian military activity before the conflict, that tells you everything you need to know about who is really responsible.

Quote:
Russia already has a sphere of influence in that part of the world, and the whole 'US as world policeman meme' is a busted flush. You might as well accustom yourself to these basic facts, as they ain't changing any time soon.
No one here is talking about the United States being a world policeman. NATO does not accept any sort of Russian sphere of influence in which they dominate and control what are supposed to be independent and democratic countries.

Estonia, Latvia, and Luthunia, former Soviet Republics are already in NATO. NATO expansion has been the reality now for over a decade. Its about time Russia woke up to this reality and accepted it.
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Old 09-12-2008, 02:19 PM   #696
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Re: The Bush Doctrine, since Palin couldn't give a good answer...

To this day it amazes me the number of people who either don't see or don't care about the ethical questions and implications that arise from the concept of 'preventative war'.

I am reminded of the film Minority Report, about a futuristic pre-crime system in which three pseudo-comatose humans have the gift of pre-cognition and can see crimes before they are committed, and the images they see in their head are transfered to cops, who then go and arrest the person in question before a crime is committed. The film centers around the ethical question of whether or not it is ok to arrest someone for a crime they haven't committed, just because you're almost certain they were going to.

It applies here. Despite all of the things Saddam was doing to his own people, he, and Iraq, never did anything to us to warrant an invasion. Therefore, there is a serious ethical question about the merits of invading a country that hasn't done anything to you. That doesn't mean you ignore it. You keep a close eye on their activities, you give special importance to any intelligence you get regarding the region(you know, instead of ignoring a briefing entitled, 'Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S.'), you be prepared to defend yourself should they try anything, and even be prepared to retaliate in the event that they succeed with anything and if there is absolutely no other course of action to take. But don't go invading them before they've done anything.

No, I think the Bush Doctrine is reactionary, reckless, and fear-based.
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Old 09-12-2008, 02:21 PM   #697
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I also find it quite interesting that when faced with a question she didn't quite understand, the default is to basically back Bush 100%.

And here I thought she and McCain were campaigning for change in Washington...
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Old 09-12-2008, 02:51 PM   #698
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not to worry! for all the fretting that's going on over how Palin has embarrassed herself in the Charlie Gibson interview, damage control has already begun.

Ms. Palin will do her next interview with this guy:

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Old 09-12-2008, 03:02 PM   #699
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Oh goody. Get ready for some hard hitting, probing journalism.
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Old 09-12-2008, 03:10 PM   #700
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IMO, that Defenders of Wildlife ad doesn't really mean very much without more info on ratios of wolves and bears to moose and caribou in the areas where the aerial gunning was carried out. It's illegal under federal law to shoot animals from planes for sport; they permit it only where the state in question has determined predator control measures are called for in specific area(s), and the shooting must be done by either state employees or licensed hunters who've been granted special permits for the purpose. Of course none of that automatically makes the Alaska measures in question unproblematic; again, you'd need to see data on predator-prey population ratios in the relevant areas, as well as on what percentages of moose and caribou are killed by wolves and bears as opposed to humans (e.g., are wolves being given a reasonable chance to compete with humans for caribou, or are we talking an egregious sop to hunters where wolf populations are being kept at near-endangerment levels to keep hunting-expedition businesses happy?).

At any rate I doubt this will be a major issue with many voters.
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