Flag burning???

[BVS]

 

[deep]

You talk about comparisons that are not well thought-out, but yours takes the cake.

I said something about melon's slight of conservatives, and you post examples of Spagnola's hatred?

HUH?
What is the connection, deep?

This thread was about flag-burning, and neither side had insulted a whole group of people - until melon. That's the "slight of conservatives" I was talking about.

He does that all the time. It doesn't make a difference whether it is actually part of the conversation or not.

“Republican legislators are a bunch of morons who want their salaries and prestige, but want nothing to do with actually fixing problems.”

Melon's post was about how the right uses the anti-flag burning amendment for gain.

Congressman Cox told me it would never become law, but it was a good election year ploy by the GOP.






As for preacher Chuck,

I did not know much about him.

Your post made me do some research.

I expected to validate what you posted. It went the other way

anyone who wear's
a shirt that reads


G-ot
A-ids
Y-et

and climbs a flag pole

and is joined by a GOP candidate in a parade
does more to slight conservatives than anything Melon could post.

 

[VertigoGal]

this guy seem like a real sicko. (d'oh)

but i just don't know how i feel about the entire "hate crimes" concept. people have the right to be as bigoted and hateful as they want, its only the actual crime that should be punished. even in the case of someone putting swastikas on a jewish temple, for example, it seems to me like the person could only truly be convicted of vandalism. i dunno...

 

[deep]

in the case of someone putting swastikas on a jewish temple, for example, it seems to me like the person could only truly be convicted of vandalism. i dunno...

you don't see the difference

in a kid writing his name on a wall

neo nazis putting swastikas on a temple?

the intent and the harm inflicted on the victims

 

[financeguy]

you don't see the difference

in a kid writing his name on a wall

neo nazis putting swastikas on a temple?

the intent and the harm inflicted on the victims

yes, like the "N***ers out" graffiti I saw in a certain Mid-European city recently.

 

[melon]

but i just don't know how i feel about the entire "hate crimes" concept. people have the right to be as bigoted and hateful as they want, its only the actual crime that should be punished. even in the case of someone putting swastikas on a jewish temple, for example, it seems to me like the person could only truly be convicted of vandalism. i dunno...

Until you're part of a hated minority, one will never understand the need for punishing "hate crimes." America, especially, has a long history of bigotry that needs to be broken. Maybe an extra punishment for crimes committed out of bigotry will help break that cycle.

Melon

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

anyone who wear's
a shirt that reads


G-ot
A-ids
Y-et

and climbs a flag pole

and is joined by a GOP candidate in a parade
does more to slight conservatives than anything Melon could post.

I would have to agree with that.

I just do not understand how someone could wear a shirt with that kind of thing on it, and actually believe it, support it. What an idiot.

Angela

 

[theblazer]

I think it's a silly thing. It's just a piece of cloth.

And Koran is a just a bunch of paper. Yet we need to apologize for that?

 

[echo0001]

And Koran is a just a bunch of paper. Yet we need to apologize for that?

Excuse me--the Koran is a religious document.

The flag is a political\governmental symbol.

Entirely different animals there--or they damn well should be.

The proposed anit-flag burning amendment was intended to prohibit the desecration of the flag (root word sacred, origin Latin sacrare, meaning 'holy'.

The constitution of the United States mandates seperation of church and state.

Any national law that attempts to force people to hold a political symbol in the same regard that they hold a religious symbol would, seems to me, be in violation of the constitutional prohibition of the mixing of church and state.

That would feel like the United States government telling me "Fall down on your knees and worship our mighty self." When hell freezes over... I will not treat\think of\regard\worship a national flag, a political symbol, as an object of holy veneration.

I would burn a flag as a political protest, if I thought it would draw attention to the political issue at hand.

I would never burn the Koran, or the Bible, or even the Book of the Hopi, for any purpose.

 

[Irvine511]

treating the Koran with respect is more of a military strategy than anything else.

we fight the enemies we have, not the enemy we want.

don't give them any more reason to hate us than they already do. and if that involves not flushing a Koran down a toilet or pissing on it, then so be it.

 

[Irvine511]

as for flag burning ...

the reason i would never burn a flag is because i am allowed to burn the flag.

if flag burning were made illegal, i'd burn a flag in protest.

 

[melon]

And Koran is a just a bunch of paper. Yet we need to apologize for that?

The Bible is a piece of paper. Pardon me while I wipe my ass with the Book of Leviticus.

Melon

 

[A_Wanderer]

The Bible is a piece of paper. Pardon me while I wipe my ass with the Book of Leviticus.

Melon

Actually with some masking tape the Bible makes for some great games, I once scored a top left corner shot in Bible Soccer.

 

[VertigoGal]

Until you're part of a hated minority, one will never understand the need for punishing "hate crimes." America, especially, has a long history of bigotry that needs to be broken. Maybe an extra punishment for crimes committed out of bigotry will help break that cycle.

Melon

ok, for christs sake, im jewish. i mean i dont really know what i believe, but i was raised jewish, attended synagogue, the whole shebang. so yes, even if its not necessarily the target du jour (i vaguely remember some bad shit around the 2000 elections w/ Lieberman and all, but i was only 10), i do know what its like to be discriminated against. hey, wanna hear a jew joke? whats the difference between a jew and an apple pie? an apple pie doesnt scream when you put it in the oven.

fuckers.

but not criminals.

youre spewing hate about the bible, thats very offensive to some christians i can imagine. but i dont see anyone coming to arrest you. fuck, the moderators arent even censoring you for it.

edit: i just realized i said "for christs sake, im jewish"!...i'll leave that there for your entertainment...

 

[VertigoGal]

as for flag burning ...

the reason i would never burn a flag is because i am allowed to burn the flag.

if flag burning were made illegal, i'd burn a flag in protest.

same here

 

[BonosSaint]

I've always found it ironic when people defend the flag, but not the freedoms of which it is supposed to be symbolic.

 

[melon]

fuckers.

but not criminals.

youre spewing hate about the bible, thats very offensive to some christians i can imagine. but i dont see anyone coming to arrest you. fuck, the moderators arent even censoring you for it.

"Hate speech" is constitutionally protected. "Hate actions" are not.

If the "good Reverend" wants to say nasty things about homosexuals, he can. If he wants to demonstrate against them, he can with the proper permits. But he crosses a fine line between "hate speech" and "hate action" when he burns gay symbols, including effigies. That's tantamount to "inciting violence," which is illegal.

If I want to say nasty things about the Bible, I'm constitutionally protected to do so. If I want to organize a protest in front of a church, burn effigies of Christians during the services, and set fire to the Bible while loudly chanting anti-Christian slogans, that's tantamount to "inciting violence," which would be illegal.

I don't know why these concepts are so difficult for many people in this thread. It's either "all" or "nothing," when, in fact, the laws are quite nuanced on this subject and rightfully so.

Melon

 

[VertigoGal]

so burning the American flag *isn't* inciting violence toward America/Americans? now i'm confused.

and hate speech is protected, but hate actions such as chanting hateful slogans are not?

so, saying hateful things in a level tone is fine, but saying them in a sing-song way isnt? saying hateful things in your "inside voice" is fine, but shouting them isnt?

pardon me for not grasping this concept

 

[BonosSaint]

so burning the American flag *isn't* inciting violence toward America/Americans? now i'm confused.

The burning of the flag is generally a political statement, although I assume it can be used to inflame hatred of America. It has been determined (so far) to be protected political speech, which does not target a person or persons, but a political symbol. On a whole, people who burn American flags are doing it as protest against American policy, not Americans.

We have a history of burning a lot of things in this country.

 

[melon]

so burning the American flag *isn't* inciting violence toward America/Americans? now i'm confused.

No. Burning a flag in America is usually done by people who protest the government or its policies. Again, protest against the government has a long history of being constitutionally protected, which is likely why flag burning has consistently been upheld to be part of our First Amendment rights.

Now when people in the Middle East burn American flags, I'd agree with you that it is motivated by hatred and the desire to incite violence against Americans. However, no constitutional amendment in the world can make it illegal for foreigners to burn an American flag on foreign soil. That's completely outside of our jurisdiction.

Melon

 

[VertigoGal]

How does the government know what your intent was when you burned the flag?

If you burn a flag and scream Fuck America while doing so, can you be arrested?

this really is news to me, honestly.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

i do know what its like to be discriminated against. hey, wanna hear a jew joke? whats the difference between a jew and an apple pie? an apple pie doesnt scream when you put it in the oven.

Wow.... Yeouch.

Angela

 

[80sU2isBest]

The Jews are historically one of the most discriminated-against people in the world. I can't even imagine the horrific fear that they went through during WWII.

Gypsies, homosexuals and Catholics who wouldn't tow the Nazi party line didn't have it real easy, either.

 

[BonosSaint]

How does the government know what your intent was when you burned the flag?

If you burn a flag and scream Fuck America while doing so, can you be arrested?

The government basically has to assume political speech as your intent. I also do not think you can get arrested for screaming Fuck America while burning a flag; however, you may get your ass kicked.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Mmhm. A truly frightening time...I don't know how people managed to make it through that.

That Jew "joke" disturbs me more and more each time I read it. Seriously, that is just not cool. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that, VertigoGal .

Angela

 

[melon]

How does the government know what your intent was when you burned the flag?

If you burn a flag and scream Fuck America while doing so, can you be arrested?

this really is news to me, honestly.

You still can't be arrested for flag burning. "Fuck America" is still constitutionally protected free speech as a protest against the government. Again, the difference is that it is speech directed towards the government, not at a specific individual or ethnicity. If you threaten the President in your protest, you'll get arrested; but that's because you've switched from a generic protest against the government to a direct threat against a specific individual.

Speech against non-living, generic entities: protected

Speech against individuals or ethnicities: not-protected, if it incites violence

Melon

 

[VertigoGal]

The government basically has to assume political speech as your intent. I also do not think you can get arrested for screaming Fuck America while burning a flag; however, you may get your ass kicked.

or a good mowing over with a car, if you happen to be on the street.

honestly though, im still bent on the slogan thing. how is level-toned, "inside voices" hateful speech perfectly fine by the constitution, yet the same hate when said in cute little slogan at the top of your lungs is a crime?

or did i read that wrong?

edit: ok, melon, your above post did somewhat answer the question in my post, even if i dont necessarily agree with it.

the whole thing seems so subject to interpretation

 

[80sU2isBest]

Mmhm. A truly frightening time...I don't know how people managed to make it through that.

That Jew "joke" disturbs me more and more each time I read it. Seriously, that is just not cool. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that, VertigoGal .

Angela

Reminds me of the sick and insensitive jokes that happened after the David Koresh/Waco thing. I always felt like socking the joke teller in the mouth.

 

[BonosSaint]

I'm sorry. I don't understand your question. Please clarify.

 

[BonosSaint]

Sorry. My post above was directed to VertigoGal.