equality blooms with spring, pt. II

[AEON]

Originally Posted by martha

Then please direct me to the post. It may have gotten lost somewhere in the adoption sidetrack.

Originally Posted by AEON

If I find it, and re-post it, what will you do to entertain us?

Originally Posted by martha

I can't tap dance, although I took lessons once.

And no one wants me to sing. :shudder:

I could fall off my bicycle. I haven't yet, but I think we all know it's going to happen at some point.

Originally Posted by martha

AEON, thank you for the quotes you provided..

C'mon martha - start dancing or singing or falling....

[AEON]

Originally Posted by melon

Although I think I've done a very good job of separating ideas from people (which I chalk up to all the philosophy I've read), it's worth remembering that it's much easier to do this when the outcome of one's opinions one way or another has no bearing on one's life.

I understand the difficulty you face when this discussion addresses points very close to your personal life. However, since you mentioned a love of philosophy – I thought I would quote Marcus Aurelius:

Perceive at last that you have in you something better and more divine than the things which cause the various effects, and as it were pull you by the strings. What is there now in my mind? is it fear, or suspicion, or desire, or anything of the kind? – Marcus Aurelius

When we are pulled by the strings of emotion, our thoughts are more likely to become irrational.

Originally Posted by melon

That much different than being gay or even female, really, where conservative viewpoints, if enacted, would enact terrible hardship and would certainly make it much harder to see conservatives as allies in any respect.

Yet, many of these “conservatives” have bled or died to ensure the freedom of even having this debate. I am hopeful that in this case, you see them as allies and not enemies.

[martha]

Originally Posted by AEON

C'mon martha - start dancing or singing or falling....

I'll do my best on my bike on the way to work.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by martha

AEON, thank you for the quotes you provided.

Joking aside - I do appreciate your courtesy here. ^

[financeguy]

Originally Posted by BVS

AEON and Fguy, you guys put on quite the tap dancing show last night after I went to bed. I'm sure your friends would have found it very straight of you guys.

What are you talking about?

[BVS]

Both of you danced around everything asked of you.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by financeguy

What are you talking about?

Unless you admit gay men kissing is gross - then you are not being honest.

[phillyfan26]

Originally Posted by financeguy

I think that's pretty naive, to be honest. Given that contraception and social welfare are readily available, it's naive to think that moral hazard isn't an issue here. Before contraception and the welfare state, you might have had a point.

There are communities where pregnancy and having a bunch of kids is a badge of honour. Not least because of the social welfare benefits.

1. Again, this implies that a nine-month pregnancy is something one just shrugs off as if it doesn't make a huge impact on someone's life.

2. I'm naive for saying adoption isn't the reason kids are getting pregnant? I think you need to understand that you're talking about my demographic, the people I know. I'm a teenager. I know exactly why kids do what they do sexually. And the ones that get pregnant aren't getting pregnant simply because, "Meh, who cares, someone can just adopt this kid!"

3. It's a badge of honor to continually give birth to children to put up for adoption? Really? I could understand if you were talking about a badge of honor for having and keeping children, even if that is the minority of cases, but I have no idea what you're getting at here.

[phillyfan26]

Originally Posted by AEON

Unless you admit gay men kissing is gross - then you are not being honest.

No, she was talking about honesty in general. I think you're smart. You think before you post. But I think, in the end, you're against homosexuality for religious reasons and that's that. You're trying to rationalize it with these arguments, and they're not making sense. If you simply told us, "My religion has made its thoughts clear on homosexuality and I agree with them. That's my reason." I think it would go a long way to help us understand where you're coming from. I would disagree profusely with attempts to put religious views in law, but I would know why you think that way. Every secular attempt you've made to discuss this issue makes my head hurt because of how little sense it makes.

[Dreadsox]

Originally Posted by AEON

While I don't think this is the least bit accurate - it did make me realize something - it appears you actually view conservatives as enemies instead of people with different viewpoints.

At the end of the day, emotions rarely help make sound decisions...

While I agree with most of this, I would say to you, that it is easy for you and I not to get emotional about this topic when we do not have to worry about marriage being denied us.

I am emotional about it in reference to my gay relatives who have been a better role model for my marriage than the eleven marriages among my parents and my wife's parents.

I would also add into the mix that my cousin has done very well for himself, is married, has children despite being raised by two women.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by phillyfan26

No, she was talking about honesty in general.

The sad part is - I truly believe that this is the only "answer" that some people want to hear.

Originally Posted by phillyfan26

I think you're smart. You think before you post.

Thank you - I think the same of you and most of the others in this forum.

Originally Posted by phillyfan26

But I think, in the end, you're against homosexuality for religious reasons and that's that.

I am not so quick to concede this point. My Christianity is quite "outside the box" in many areas. While I obviously agree with the Fundamentalists on whether or not homosexual acts are sinful - I disagree with them on astrophysics, geology, biology (evolution)...etc. I also disagree with them that the state should legislate marriages. This is more of a libertarian view than a conservative one.

Originally Posted by phillyfan26

You're trying to rationalize it with these arguments, and they're not making sense.

Well, to quite a few people outside this forum these arguments do in fact make sense. To many it does seem that a child should be placed in a home with mother and father - if possible. To many it does make sense that the state should not be involved in the marriage process. While I am not suggesting you agree because a large group of people also agree - I simply want to point out that the ideas being presented are not so out of the mainstream that they shouldn't be discussed.

Originally Posted by phillyfan26

If you simply told us, "My religion has made its thoughts clear on homosexuality and I agree with them. That's my reason." I think it would go a long way to help us understand where you're coming from.

As I said above - this is only partially true.

Originally Posted by phillyfan26

I would disagree profusely with attempts to put religious views in law, but I would know why you think that way.

I agree to a certain extent, which is why I said the state should not be involved in the marriage process.

Originally Posted by phillyfan26

Every secular attempt you've made to discuss this issue makes my head hurt...

Please accept my apologies...

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Dreadsox

While I agree with most of this, I would say to you, that it is easy for you and I not to get emotional about this topic when we do not have to worry about marriage being denied us.

I am emotional about it in reference to my gay relatives who have been a better role model for my marriage than the eleven marriages among my parents and my wife's parents.

I would also add into the mix that my cousin has done very well for himself, is married, has children despite being raised by two women.

Well, I certainly can't deny what you have observed. This is obviously a success story - and I'm certain there are others. I think you have certainly demonstrated that gay adoption can succeed, but I am still not convinced that it is a child's best chance for success if equally qualified heterosexual couples are available.

[phillyfan26]

Originally Posted by AEON

Well, to quite a few people outside this forum these arguments do in fact make sense. To many it does seem that a child should be placed in a home with mother and father - if possible. To many it does make sense that the state should not be involved in the marriage process. While I am not suggesting you agree because a large group of people also agree - I simply want to point out that the ideas being presented are not so out of the mainstream that they shouldn't be discussed.

I agree to a certain extent, which is why I said the state should not be involved in the marriage process.

I understand that a lot of people agree with the arguments, but that's simple because people infer that the norm works best. It's a bit of a logical fallacy if you ask me.

And I think you need to begin talking about the laws should be in context: know that the state will not be taken from the marriage process. It's just not going to happen. I think it would be more fruitful for everyone if you discussed what should happen with marriage while acknowledging that it's not going away.

[financeguy]

Originally Posted by phillyfan26

I think you need to understand that you're talking about my demographic, the people I know. I'm a teenager. I know exactly why kids do what they do sexually. And the ones that get pregnant aren't getting pregnant simply because, "Meh, who cares, someone can just adopt this kid!"

From a middle class background though, right?

Originally Posted by phillyfan26

3. It's a badge of honor to continually give birth to children to put up for adoption?

In a certain class of society.

[phillyfan26]

Originally Posted by AEON

Well, I certainly can't deny what you have observed. This is obviously a success story - and I'm certain there are others. I think you have certainly demonstrated that gay adoption can succeed, but I am still not convinced that it is a child's best chance for success if equally qualified heterosexual couples are available.

It's so difficult to decide what is the "best chance" and they're so few and far between that I think it's silly to try. Any opportunity for a child to be raised by caring, competent persons or people is a good opportunity, and shouldn't be judged based on such inconsequential things.

No one knows what the perfect upbringing is.

[phillyfan26]

Originally Posted by financeguy

From a middle class background though, right?

In a certain class of society.

I am from a middle class background. One of my best friends is from a lower class background. I have friends above and below the poverty line.

What class is this and how prominent is it? And is it really a class of society that would be impacted by a small percentage of new couples looking to adopt?

[BVS]

Originally Posted by financeguy

In a certain class of society.

Oh, I would love to hear this, please explain.

[financeguy]

Originally Posted by BVS

Oh, I would love to hear this, please explain.

Depending on political point of view, elements of society that are disadvantaged or elements of society that are addicted to handouts.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by financeguy

Depending on political point of view, elements of society that are disadvantaged or elements of society that are addicted to handouts.

No, it doesn't depend on political point of view. You stated more than once that there is a "certain class of society" where it's a badge of honor to pop out babies and then give them up to adoption. So what are you basing this on, and where are your numbers? And what the hell do "handouts" have to do with it?

[financeguy]

Originally Posted by BVS

No, it doesn't depend on political point of view. You stated more than once that there is a "certain class of society" where it's a badge of honor to pop out babies and then give them up to adoption. So what are you basing this on, and where are your numbers? And what the hell do "handouts" have to do with it?

Well, considering we had a thread about the subject not all that long ago. I think this was the situation being discussed at that time:

Alan Colmes' Liberaland � Mother Of Octuplets Has Six Other Kids