Don't Ask Don't Tell

[Irvine511]

Irvine, try to remember we're talking about the US military here? Fuck all this cohesion bullshit! The simple fact is that there are a lot of homophobes in the military who aren't going to serve with openly gay people. This ain't the swim team for Pete's sake!

and then, they reitre from the military, and move to Old Town Alexandria to live with their boyfriends.

you might think i'm kidding, but i'm not.

it's amazing how many ex-military men come out once they leave the armed forces.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

So in conservative Islamic societies women are seen as sexual objects and must be separated from men in order for men not to submit to their uncontrollable base urges. You've made comments before to the effect that you want to fight so-called "Islamofascism" in order to halt the spread of such ideas. And yet here you're espousing a version of the same idea. That doesn't cause any cognitive dissonance for you?

That is such an excellent point, I look forward to the response.

 

[yolland]

to be honest with you, i'm not saying EVERYONE is like this, but it was when i was in the military i saw the most overt homophobia and sexism being practiced, joked about, and even encouraged.

Out of curiosity, would you say that this kind of thinking is common in all-female groups as well? (e.g., having lesbians around would damage 'cohesion'?)

 

[Judah]

As an Infantry Platoon Leader, I can tell you this is not a good idea. We are asked to live too close and too tight to be worried about sexual tension. This is the same reason women should not be in the Infantry.

"Male bonding" of a non-sexual type is a key component to the Infantry. Adding the sexual element would be interfering with unit cohesion - and would put lives at risk - all for the sake of making a very small minority comfortable. This is unacceptable. Is this truly about making a better Army or is it about making a political statement?

The modern Infantry is not designed for everyone. You can quote me all the articles you want about Greek soldiers and Alexander the Great - and we could debate whether or not these articles are true or simply revisionist history. There just isn't enough information about these armies. However, we have volumes and volumes of information from the Revolutionary War through today.

One of the best militaries in the world -- from a fairly conservative religious society -- would disagree with you. Israel, it seems, has seen the transition of openly homosexual military personnel with not much of a problem. I can't imagine Americans would be that backwards. Let's give Americans a shot at being progressive, non?

http://www.gaymilitary.ucsb.edu/Publications/IsraelPub1.htm

"Further, there is no evidence that the long-standing inclusion of homosexuals in the IDF has harmed operational effectiveness, combat readiness, unit cohesion, or morale in the Israeli military. In a security-conscious nation, this is simply not a concern among military personnel or the public more generally."

 

[BVS]

That is such an excellent point, I look forward to the response.

I'm willing to bet money that we won't get a response...

It's an excellent point. I think many conservatives are much closer in thought and beliefs with their sworn "enemy" then any would ever admit.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I'm willing to bet money that we won't get a response...

It's an excellent point. I think many conservatives are much closer in thought and beliefs with their sworn "enemy" then any would ever admit.

And that is exactly why pro-freedom individuals should stand up against all forms of religious opression and bigotry.

 

[redhotswami]

Out of curiosity, would you say that this kind of thinking is common in all-female groups as well? (e.g., having lesbians around would damage 'cohesion'?)

Interesting question. The only example I can think of at this moment are Women's Colleges. I've never attended one myself, however in my experience visiting RMWC and Hollins, I certainly didn't see that sort of thinking expressed nor that behavior exhibited. The atmosphere was all inclusive.

 

[redhotswami]

One of the best militaries in the world -- from a fairly conservative religious society -- would disagree with you. Israel, it seems, has seen the transition of openly homosexual military personnel with not much of a problem. I can't imagine Americans would be that backwards. Let's give Americans a shot at being progressive, non?

http://www.gaymilitary.ucsb.edu/Publications/IsraelPub1.htm

"Further, there is no evidence that the long-standing inclusion of homosexuals in the IDF has harmed operational effectiveness, combat readiness, unit cohesion, or morale in the Israeli military. In a security-conscious nation, this is simply not a concern among military personnel or the public more generally."

heh. I was totally debating whether or not to post info about Israel's military. Thanks for doing this!!

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Maybe most female bonding is about real emotions and relating in real ways that have nothing to do with sex or sexual orientation, whereas most male bonding (at least in the military) exists in some bizarro world. Sorry, I just don't get the whole notion.

Seems to me what makes for a strong military is having members who can have genuine respect and caring for all types of people, regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation. That's what real strength is. If they can't, well I think you end up with a boatload of problems. And we do.

 

[yolland]

Interesting question. The only example I can think of at this moment are Women's Colleges.

Oh, I was more thinking of women soldiers specifically. Since for example the 'close-quarters' situation of female athletes in locker rooms came up in another recent thread, and several observed at that time that in their experience discomfort with having a lesbian teammate in the locker room just wasn't an issue for female athletes. I was wondering if this was the case with female soldiers, as well. Perhaps you weren't personally in a situation like that though.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Hm, you are in the heat of a battle, fighting for your life, and the only thing you think about is whether your openly gay comrade would jump on you in an 'explosion' of sexual desire?

I don't think that's anywhere near reality.

 

[BVS]

Hm, you are in the heat of a battle, fighting for your life, and the only thing you think about is whether your openly gay comrade would jump on you in an 'explosion' of sexual desire?

I don't think that's anywhere near reality.

Exactly!!!

It's just a lie people tell themselves to mask their own hatreds and sexism.

 

[Irvine511]

Hm, you are in the heat of a battle, fighting for your life, and the only thing you think about is whether your openly gay comrade would jump on you in an 'explosion' of sexual desire?

I don't think that's anywhere near reality.

but it could make for some really hot porn ...

 

[Vincent Vega]

^
That would define the job of a war photographer totally new

 

[yolland]

I'm still looking for a good explanation as to why straight men apparently often have this reaction to the idea of sharing a locker room or barracks with gay men, whereas straight women apparently seldom have that reaction with lesbians.

 

[anitram]

I've never encountered women with this problem. Not in student rez or anywhere. My roommate's best friend is a lesbian, she stays here often, I've never had any issue while she was over. My best friend was visiting me last weekend while the other girl was over, again, nobody felt uncomfortable. Why would I? Are we so self-centred to think that she'd immediately fall in love with us and assault us in the bathroom while we're showering? It's completely ridiculous.

 

[Irvine511]

I'm still looking for a good explanation as to why straight men apparently often have this reaction to the idea of sharing a locker room or barracks with gay men, whereas straight women apparently seldom have that reaction with lesbians.

it must be the magically persuasive powers of the penis.

 

[Irvine511]

I've never encountered women with this problem. Not in student rez or anywhere. My roommate's best friend is a lesbian, she stays here often, I've never had any issue while she was over. My best friend was visiting me last weekend while the other girl was over, again, nobody felt uncomfortable. Why would I? Are we so self-centred to think that she'd immediately fall in love with us and assault us in the bathroom while we're showering? It's completely ridiculous.

i've showered with straight men, slept in the same bed with a straight man.

 

[AEON]

Hm, you are in the heat of a battle, fighting for your life, and the only thing you think about is whether your openly gay comrade would jump on you in an 'explosion' of sexual desire?

I don't think that's anywhere near reality.

Being a solder is 99.9% training and team building. Very rarely is there an actual battle.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Being a solder is 99.9% training and team building. Very rarely is there an actual battle.

So what exactly is it about women and gay men and women that prohibits this "team building"? Or is team building just some sort of code that means something else?

 

[AEON]

Is it possible there are certain heterosexual male personality types that simply do not mix well with homosexuals? And that these types typically gravitate to organizations like the Infantry?

By the way - I have met some Israeli Infantry officers - do not think for a moment that they are that different from their American counterparts. In fact, the British Infantry officers were the same as well.

I can't speak for everyone in all Infantry units in all armies - but I certainly know that it is my observation that what I've posted is the prevalent attitude in the Infantry about gays in the military.

 

[redhotswami]

Is it possible there are certain heterosexual male personality types that simply do not mix well with homosexuals? And that these types typically gravitate to organizations like the Infantry?

None of the temperament theories I've studied have anything to do with closemindedness.

 

[AEON]

So what exactly is it about women and gay men and women that prohibits this "team building"? Or is team building just some sort of code that means something else?

That depends on the team - does it not? A team of marketing strategist would look different than a team of Infantry soldiers. Different jobs require different people - why is that so hard to accept?

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I don't understand really what mixing well with homosexuals means-you work together and do your best to get along just as you do with heterosexuals. I get along or don't get along with people based upon what they are like as people, not their orientation.

 

[redhotswami]

Different jobs require different people - why is that so hard to accept?

I don't think people aren't accepting this. We all know this. You're saying that a certain breed of closedminded and paranoid military men will end up in infantry. I'm saying that the military attracts both gay and straight people. It has been stated repeatedly in this thread that there are currently gays serving. Also, closedminded and paranoid heterosexual men can flock to various other careers as well.

 

[AEON]

None of the temperament theories I've studied have anything to do with closemindedness.

From my POV - it seems that many here are being close minded about the possibility that I may be right, that perhaps the Infantry isn't the right fit for everyone.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Different jobs require different people - why is that so hard to accept?

Different jobs require different people-but NOT people of any particular orientation or gender. Even some women can lift heavy amounts and objects and do other traditionally male jobs. And vice versa-men can do jobs that have been considered in the past to be "female". Ability to do a job, including the military, is based upon personality traits and sometimes physical abilities-and that has nothing whatsoever to do with sexual orientation. It has everything to do with individual traits. So unless you believe that individual traits are ascribed to orientation (and that's called stereotyping), there's no connection there.

 

[redhotswami]

From my POV - it seems that many here are being close minded about the possibility that I may be right, that perhaps the Infantry isn't the right fit for everyone.

We know it isn't the right fit for everyone. That isn't the issue here. There are currently GAYS SERVING IN THE MILITARY. They're there already! This isn't a debate about whether or not gays should serve. They already are!!! This debate is about them being censored about their culture. The military allows them to serve, but doesn't allow them to talk. THAT'S what the issue is.

 

[AEON]

None of the temperament theories I've studied have anything to do with closemindedness.

Actually - the ENTJ personality type (from MBTI) is often seen in this light. This just happens to be my personality type

 

[redhotswami]

Actually - the ENTJ personality type (from MBTI) is often seen in this light.

I don't remember reading that the ENTJ temperament was closed minded. It is one of the rational types, but rational does not mean closed. minded. What source says they are closed minded?