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Old 04-11-2008, 11:33 AM   #81
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Originally posted by melon


Religion is all about "absolute truth," right? And, by definition, "absolute truth" is right, no matter if the "majority" voted against it, right?

Science deals in absolute truth, not ideology. As such, your talk about "monopolizing theories" is relativistic nonsense.
Please don't be so naïve as to think that ideologies don't use science to advance themselves.

If science has the "absolute truth" about the origin of life then let's recreate that moment in the laboratory because that would be game-over for thinking we need supernatural intervention.
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Old 04-11-2008, 11:59 AM   #82
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Originally posted by INDY500

The native populations of Europe, Russia and Japan are all shrinking.
You know which countries in Europe have the lowest birth rates? Exactly, the more conservative ones.

Which European countries have higher birth rates? Right again, the more progressive and secularized ones.

And the reasons for that lie very much in how the state supports families, which is generally better in the Scandinavian countries.
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Old 04-11-2008, 12:05 PM   #83
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Secular state? Is that what you meant to say? Didn't we see enough during the last century to realize that the quest for an atheist utopia quickly turns into a license for mass murder. All, of coarse, in the name of reason, science and the state and towards a new and better man.
Could you elaborate on that one? Germany was a pretty religious and conservative society in the 1930's. Antisemitism wasn't grounded in atheism, not at all.

Communist states didn't define themselves through atheism, that was rather a component. It's ridiculous to say that atheism is a cause for mass murder. The church did prove to be capable of orchestrating mass murder just as good.
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Old 04-11-2008, 01:38 PM   #84
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Oh please.
If we can talk about Nature's God and the Creator when discussing the birth of our nation I don't think it terribly out of order that discussions dealing with the birth of the universe and the dawning of man shouldn't also at least make mention of them.

The theory of Design is speculation on facts, but then so are those famous ape to man lineups adorning the walls of classrooms.


garbage.

the "nature's god and the creator" have NOTHING to do with science. this has been amply demonstrated in here, and in other places. if the word "Creator" were to appear in a science book, it should be tossed out the window. likewise, if a history textbook didn't mention the word "Creator" when discussing the DOI, then that should likewise be tossed out the window.

it boggles my mind that people can't grasp what science is and what it isn't, and the threat you seem to feel by it's existence.

and it is absolute crap to compare ID to evolution. they are not both "theories" in any comparable sense whatsoever. one is science, the other is not, no matter how much one tries to retroactively graft "science" upon it. there's only so much lipstick you can put on a pig.
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Old 04-11-2008, 01:45 PM   #85
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At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether there is or isn't intelligent design, whether we got here by evolution or if aliens spawned us and took off.

If there are going to be any 'earth-shattering' events surrounding a God or alien invasion or the earth simply bursting into flames, there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Odds are in your favor that it's not going to happen in your lifetime, though.

Barring all that, you're going to live, and then you're going to die. And that is the end of you. Afterlife is realized through children. You have children, you live on. Otherwise, your line ceases to exist.

And noone has been there and back to prove any differently.

It's not where you're from, it's where you're at.
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Old 04-11-2008, 02:35 PM   #86
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Barring all that, you're going to live, and then you're going to die. And that is the end of you. Afterlife is realized through children. You have children, you live on. Otherwise, your line ceases to exist.


seems a bit uncharitable to the infertile.
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Old 04-11-2008, 03:04 PM   #87
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Originally posted by Irvine511

seems a bit uncharitable to the infertile.
You're revealing an underlying belief in life (or something) after death. If you don't ever believe that concept, and I don't go around preaching childbearing as the way to eternal life, it can't be uncharitable for people who do have children to feel that the way we do "live on" (note, I use the term figuratively) is through those children.

I'm not saying this is a dogma to be preached, but a reality that I as a sane rationally thinking human have come up with as a sort of answer or explanation for the whole 'eternal life/afterlife' undercurrent running through every faith on the planet. What's the most common denominator amongst all these peoples and nations and beliefs? The ability to procreate and regenerate one's line through offspring. Pretty basic concept.

Besides, since when is nature and reality charitable? Some humans will get to live on through their offspring, some will not. Some fish get caught and eaten, others die a natural death.
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Old 04-11-2008, 03:09 PM   #88
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Dolly Parton has written over 3,000 songs, and she considers them her children.

some of those songs are going to last longer than i am.
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Old 04-11-2008, 03:36 PM   #89
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Weak, sorry.
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Old 04-11-2008, 03:46 PM   #90
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Weak, sorry.



chances are, i won't have a biological child. does this mean i'm a total dead end?
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Old 04-11-2008, 04:06 PM   #91
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I'm having a flash of inspiration guys, hold on.

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Old 04-11-2008, 04:07 PM   #92
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All you non believers and hold outs as agnostics, as a believer and friend, I would tell you to continue to be good to your fellowman, be honest, thoughtful kind and just. If you follow these attributes which come from God not only will you have more genuine joy here, but in the hereafter as well.

That's my promise, take it to the bank, and then you will be privy to even greater joy and the rest of the story.


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Old 04-11-2008, 05:10 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

chances are, i won't have a biological child. does this mean i'm a total dead end?
You're framing it that way.

It's natural selection at it's finest, really.

Whatever the reason be, ie your choice, circumstances beyond your control, whatever, no, your line can't continue unless you procreate. It's not a judgement of you, it just is what it is.

All I'm saying is that most of what religion taught us is bullshit, and the only way we can possibly realize any sort of 'eternal life' and know that we have done so is through procreation. Our genes, our 'soul', our mental and emotional makeup, it all lives on in our children. And the memory of our legacy lives on through our descendants based on what type of life we lead. Lead a life of good, and you live forever in their minds as such and bring them (and, inherently, you as the part of them still carried on) great happiness. This to me is what eventually became 'going to heaven' in many faiths. Lead a life of hurt and bad, and usually people have no other choice but to banish you from memory or push you so far back that you are largely forgotten or are always associated with that hurt. That became 'hell'.

If we believe that the bible and other 'holy books' were indeed not written by a god but by ancient men, we have to get to the core of what things that already naturally existed and occured on earth, what affected them to write the things they did and come up with these wild theories. At the very core of the human experience is procreation. So of course it is logical that this phenomenon that is so mind blowing - childbirth - would go on to become romanticized and many myths founded upon.
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Old 04-11-2008, 05:13 PM   #94
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Originally posted by diamond
So basically, a belief in a God isn't really all that necessary, is it? If you're right we'll still meet up in the 'hereafter' and if I'm right you'll still have that 'heaven' that I speak of through your children and good living...

Sounds win-win to me
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Old 04-11-2008, 05:14 PM   #95
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Originally posted by Irvine511





chances are, i won't have a biological child. does this mean i'm a total dead end?
Irvine-

Actually your mission in life could be to continuing tutoring the children that you're working with or will be working with in the future.

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Old 04-11-2008, 05:20 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by acrobatique


So basically, a belief in a God isn't really all that necessary, is it? If you're right we'll still meet up in the 'hereafter' and if I'm right you'll still have that 'heaven' that I speak of through your children and good living...

Sounds win-win to me
Nope.

Not exactly, I'm pointing out that some ppl are at different spiritual places and shouldn't be scared into accepting God and Christ on our finite clock, because God is outside of our realm and has lived forever and knows us personally, our struggles, proclivities even down to knowing every hair on our heads-that theyre numbered. Christ said that.

The larger point is that the better they treat their fellowman here, the closer the will be to accepting God in the hereafter.

I believe if ppl are misled in this life and they're open to learning that God will be merciful to them in the next life.

That's where my belief system departs from Orthodox Christianity into Unorthodox Christianity.

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Old 04-11-2008, 05:31 PM   #97
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Originally posted by acrobatique
Barring all that, you're going to live, and then you're going to die. And that is the end of you. Afterlife is realized through children. You have children, you live on. Otherwise, your line ceases to exist.

And noone has been there and back to prove any differently.

It's not where you're from, it's where you're at.
This is pretty much a poorly constructed argument:

1) "Children" are, at most, a symbolic form of immortality, as we are certainly not clones of our ancestors and, within five generations or more, we're just as forgotten as our earlier ancestors.

2) This completely ignores the fact that a form "immortality" has been classically defined just the way Irvine described in his "Dolly Parton" metaphor. What I'd call "Germanic immortality" was wholly about "immortality through accomplishment." For them, it was about heroism. If you did something especially heroic in battle, you would likely get included in an epic saga, and you would thus be "immortalized" through legend. In fact, it is argued that the Norse gods probably started out as dead war heroes from the 1st millennium B.C., who were gradually worshiped (as ancestor worship was common at the time) then deified.

Dolly Parton's music will probably be remembered much longer than five generations after our own deaths, so, in that sense, she'll end up being more worldly "immortal" than any mere child bearer.
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Old 04-11-2008, 05:50 PM   #98
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I appreciate your thoughts, but you are overlooking that I do believe that any concept of 'immortality' is largely, if not wholly, symbolic and any beliefs we have around it now are largely a product of someone before us striving to understand the circle of life. I'm applying the symbolism to an inarguable fact of nature: that we carry on our line through our children. There's nothing poorly constructed about it, it's just life.

As for Dolly parton, it's a poor metaphor. Her music is not what will be remembered about her 500 years from now, if anything at all. As for comparing her 'immortal' status - if you want to call it that - to the 'mere' child bearer, I think it's irrelevant because as I clarified the memory is carried on through the offspring and has little to do with achievements, recognition or accolades given the person outside that line.

I sense a bit of disdain in the term 'mere child bearer'. If I've misread, my bad. Make no mistake, the single most important being on this planet is the parent and by extension the child. Each and every one of them. Without them you and I do not exist to type these words, and without them our species dies.
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Old 04-11-2008, 08:46 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


Please don't be so naïve as to think that ideologies don't use science to advance themselves.

If science has the "absolute truth" about the origin of life then let's recreate that moment in the laboratory because that would be game-over for thinking we need supernatural intervention.
Are you serious? Because Craig Venter is cracking that very problem. Creating an artificial life form.

Why is it that people need supernatural intervention to accomplish something that had millions of years across the surface areas of one or more planets and only needed to happen once. While the formation of the first self-replicating molecule may be highly unlikely sheer force of numbers may make it inevitable.
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