Achtung Baby/Zooropa remasters CONFIRMED for Fall 2011 by Rolling Stone - Part II

[Nick66]

it actually does, more than anyone knows.

i'm in the marketing field and this kind of strategy is becoming very popular. it's something that i've directly been a part of at the company i work for.

Well, true. I just think that it's not part of U2's strategy. Or if it is, they're not doing it very effectively. If U2 paid attention to what people said on U2 fan sites, we never would have gotten Duals, the 2-disc War remaster would have more on it than remixes, the Achtung Baby box set would look very different, all they would have played is stuff like "Daddy's Gonna Pay Your Crashed Car" on the 360 tour (or anything else from Pop or Zooropa), the set list would have changed every night (and the presale thing would actually work), we'd probably have a lot more of those "rare and unreleased" songs and videos people have been screaming for and a lot less remixes, and Larry would release his childhood photos. Oh, and they would have cleared up this AB remaster thing by now.

Your point is well taken, and I know many companies do this now, but I've seen nothing to lead to me believe U2 Corp. is one of them. The people griping on U2 fan sites represent about 1/10 of 1% of their fan base, at most. These days U2 is more interested in pleasing so-called "casual" fans and critics than the people who hang out in places like this.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

Easy for you to say as a fan.

But if you're someone who's career has been about reaching the most you can, and trying to change the atmosphere it probably seems like a step backwards.

You don't need to/have to take the traditional route, is all I'm saying.

 

[BVS]

You don't need to/have to take the traditional route, is all I'm saying.

You mean as far as medium? i.e. Radio?

 

[morgan1098]

Amazon.com is currently encouraging me to pre-order the Super Deluxe, Uber Deluxe, and Vinyl Box set all together for the low, low price of $1,009.58. Yes!

 

[corianderstem]

Amazon.com is currently encouraging me to pre-order the Super Deluxe, Uber Deluxe, and Vinyl Box set all together for the low, low price of $1,009.58. Yes!

Is Amazon run by Paul McG now?

 

[Reggie Thee Dog]

Well, true. I just think that it's not part of U2's strategy. Or if it is, they're not doing it very effectively. If U2 paid attention to what people said on U2 fan sites, we never would have gotten Duals, the 2-disc War remaster would have more on it than remixes, the Achtung Baby box set would look very different, all they would have played is stuff like "Daddy's Gonna Pay Your Crashed Car" on the 360 tour (or anything else from Pop or Zooropa), the set list would have changed every night (and the presale thing would actually work), we'd probably have a lot more of those "rare and unreleased" songs and videos people have been screaming for and a lot less remixes, and Larry would release his childhood photos. Oh, and they would have cleared up this AB remaster thing by now.

Your point is well taken, and I know many companies do this now, but I've seen nothing to lead to me believe U2 Corp. is one of them. The people griping on U2 fan sites represent about 1/10 of 1% of their fan base, at most. These days U2 is more interested in pleasing so-called "casual" fans and critics than the people who hang out in places like this.

I do believe they keep tabs on this and other U2 forums. But just because a 'minority' of ardent fans repeatedly ask for something does not mean the band are comfortable catering to a 'group' of people. Ideas like the Duals CD and setlists are decisions the BAND (and it's management) makes, with input from various sources. Albums are albums...and U2 have their feelings on them...and no matter how passionate someone is about an album, song, time period the band has long since made up its mind about those things and moves in the direction it feels is right...but I do believe they test the waters on the Internet.

As for the Achtung Baby tracklisting/remaster questions...U2 has always worked in mysterious ways...so why move away from that now...

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

Reggie!

 

[Hollow Island]

Fair enough... but he brings it back to "what would Sgt. Pepper be without the pop songs?", and to me I think that's the important part of the quote. I think the word "hits" has been turned into an expletive in here, and what U2 really mean when they talk about "hits" is that question. U2 has always been about their pop sensibilities, and those sensibilities that resonate with large audiences. AB even though it experimented with sounds, the structures were still very much pop formulas.

Every single song on Zooropa is a pop song. Verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-verse or chorus. They are classically structured songs with catchy choruses. The pop sensibilities were very strong on that record; the songwriting is perfect.

There was no way Zooropa was going to have massive hits in 1993. Look what was popular then: Grunge, hip hop, and britpop was just getting going. Zooropa didn't fit in at all, and when it won the Grammy for best alt record Bono said it was their duty to fuck up the mainstream. That's where his head was then, and it was in a healthy place. He knew that the music was good and didn't use commercial success (though it was very successful) to measure artistic success.

Hits are a mixture of marketing and luck, among other variables that are completely unrelated to quality. I dare you to look at the billboard, or itunes, or amazon to 10, 50, or 100.

Does he now think that the Velvet Underground weren't good because "Waiting For The Man" didn't set the world on fire? Or that Joy Division weren't good because Unknown Pleasures wasn't as popular as Saturday Night Fever? Is Never Let Me Down better than Low because it sold more copies?

 

[pepokiss]

As for the Achtung Baby tracklisting/remaster questions...U2 has always worked in mysterious ways...so why move away from that now...

is that a joke on the AB re-editions having a gazillion MW remixes?

 

[BVS]

Every single song on Zooropa is a pop song. Verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-verse or chorus. They are classically structured songs with catchy choruses. The pop sensibilities were very strong on that record; the songwriting is perfect.

I wouldn't say Zooropa(song) is classically structured. And I wouldn't say "perfect" or the catchiest choruses either. But you still miss the point.

There was no way Zooropa was going to have massive hits in 1993. Look what was popular then: Grunge, hip hop, and britpop was just getting going.

Actually Zooropa was a pretty big hit on MTV, it just didn't quite fit into any of the radio formats at the time.

I dare you to look at the billboard, or itunes, or amazon to 10, 50, or 100.

You dare me? Really?

Does he now think that the Velvet Underground weren't good because "Waiting For The Man" didn't set the world on fire? Or that Joy Division weren't good because Unknown Pleasures wasn't as popular as Saturday Night Fever? Is Never Let Me Down better than Low because it sold more copies?

I still don't think you're getting it. He said nothing about it being a measure of "good". But it's what they have always strived for... why is that SO hard for some to get? When he said he wanted to fuck up the mainstream, he was talking about being part of the mainstream. Not turning his back on it.

 

[Hollow Island]

I wouldn't say Zooropa(song) is classically structured. And I wouldn't say "perfect" or the catchiest choruses either. But you still miss the point.



Actually Zooropa was a pretty big hit on MTV, it just didn't quite fit into any of the radio formats at the time.



You dare me? Really?


I still don't think you're getting it. He said nothing about it being a measure of "good". But it's what they have always strived for... why is that SO hard for some to get? When he said he wanted to fuck up the mainstream, he was talking about being part of the mainstream. Not turning his back on it.

Bono is using commercial success to judge the quality of Zooropa. That's exactly what he's doing! That's his point!

Here you go, edited to the main points:

"I thought of Zooropa at the time as a work of genius... I was a little wrong about that. .. We didn't create hits. We didn't quite deliver the songs."


One song out of 10 is not classically structured. The rest are. I am not missing the point; I'm referring to his exact words about "pop discipline" and "what would sgt pepper be without the pop songs". Zooropa has pop songs, and if you want to split hairs then I'll bring up "A Day In The Life". Classic? Fuck yeah. But not a traditional pop song by any means. Being For the Benefit of Mr Kite? Shit, really? Carnival waltz interludes? yeah, that's really pop.

Who conflated the idea of "fucking up the mainstream" with turning away from it? It's pretty obvious he wasn't talking about that.

And yeah, the Zooropa videos did very, very well and I'm pretty confused when they talk about it being a commercial failure. For the kind of record that it is, released when it was, it did pretty well.

 

[BVS]

Bono is using commercial success to judge the quality of Zooropa. That's exactly what he's doing!

That's not how I read it. It was obviously a pretty successful commercial album. I think he's looking back and disappointed that they didn't exactly succeed in what they were striving for, which was to fuckup the mainstream. The album didn't do much to change the landscape of music. Otherwise we would have been filled with bands trying to copy Lemon rather than copying NIN and Pearl Jam. Hence why they tried to jumped on the electronica wagon a few years later.

Who conflated the idea of "fucking up the mainstream" with turning away from it? It's pretty obvious he wasn't talking about that.

Oh, just about a dozen people in here on a daily basis.

 

[Hollow Island]

That's not how I read it. It was obviously a pretty successful commercial album. I think he's looking back and disappointed that they didn't exactly succeed in what they were striving for, which was to fuckup the mainstream. The album didn't do much to change the landscape of music. Otherwise we would have been filled with bands trying to copy Lemon rather than copying NIN and Pearl Jam. Hence why they tried to jumped on the electronica wagon a few years later.



Oh, just about a dozen people in here on a daily basis.

Well, it did fuck up the mainstream a bit - it was there along with a bunch of angry longhairs in the States. I don't think they set out to change the mainstream - I know their ego is pretty big (same as it is for every artist), but that's fucking absurd, to set out to change the mainstream. Anyone who thinks they can do that - and I don't think anyone does - is doing to much blow. They wanted to be a weird experimental pop band with mainstream success, which they were.

They didn't jump on the electronic bandwagon with Pop... they already were a largely electronic band. The album we're discussing is an electronic record, and OST 1 is too. Pop is a logical extension of what they were doing. They just wanted to rock again, and rock they did! Even ATYCLB is pretty elecro sounding, awash in synths.

 

[Hollow Island]

These days U2 is more interested in pleasing so-called "casual" fans and critics than the people who hang out in places like this.

If U2 care about pleasing critics they are doing a really bad job!

 

[BVS]

Well, it did fuck up the mainstream a bit - it was there along with a bunch of angry longhairs in the States. I don't think they set out to change the mainstream - I know their ego is pretty big (same as it is for every artist), but that's fucking absurd, to set out to change the mainstream. Anyone who thinks they can do that - and I don't think anyone does - is doing to much blow. They wanted to be a weird experimental pop band with mainstream success, which they were.

Well then I think you misunderstood U2 and that time period.

They didn't jump on the electronic bandwagon with Pop... they already were a largely electronic band. The album we're discussing is an electronic record, and OST 1 is too. Pop is a logical extension of what they were doing. They just wanted to rock again, and rock they did! Even ATYCLB is pretty elecro sounding, awash in synths.

Electronic is not Electronica.

 

[U2_Guy]

Well then I think you misunderstood U2 and that time period.

Electronic is not Electronica.

I'm curious: do you like the Zooropa album? What kind of bands/artists do you like? Just being curious...

 

[BVS]

I'm curious: do you like the Zooropa album? What kind of bands/artists do you like? Just being curious...

Fucking love it.

Now I'm curious as to why you quoted those two lines and asked me that. Has anything I said made you think I don't like it?

 

[U2_Guy]

Fucking love it.

Now I'm curious as to why you quoted those two lines and asked me that. Has anything I said made you think I don't like it?

I'm old here but very rarely post here. Don't know exactly how it works. I just quoted so you could see i was asking a direct question to you.

 

[BVS]

I think it's an incredible album. I think U2 were coming off a powerful high, creatively and commercially and wanted to really shape the mainstream. If you look back, Bono felt grunge was taking a step back and thought hip hop was really where the creativety was, so I think they saw an opportunity. U2 wanted to cash in on that creative and commercial power and change the atmoshpere and they didn't quite do that. I think that's what Bono was talking about, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[U2_Guy]

I think it's an incredible album. I think U2 were coming off a powerful high, creatively and commercially and wanted to really shape the mainstream. If you look back, Bono felt grunge was taking a step back and thought hip hop was really where the creativety was, so I think they saw an opportunity. U2 wanted to cash in on that creative and commercial power and change the atmoshpere and they didn't quite do that. I think that's what Bono was talking about, nothing more, nothing less.

Now i understand better your point. I do agree.

 

[Nick66]

Hollow Island, I think your take on Bono's comment is spot on. Anyone whose followed this band for any length of time knows that they, to a large degree, judge the success of their music by commercial as well as artistic standards.

BVS, I think to accept your interpretation of Bono's comments you have to twist them away from their plain meaning....i.e., what he actually said. Bono's saying that he thought that, despite all the experimenting, etc., that they made an album that would produce "hits". And from their perspective, they didn't.

The notion that they could, or even expected to change the music landscape is really not accurate, I think. At least I don't get that from the quote we're discussing. What they expected was what they always expect to do...make an album that will sell. Zooropa sold well, but compared to Achtung Baby it was a letdown. And despite some MTV "hits", the album just didn't capture people's attention and imagination the way AB did. Despite being a fan favorite today, back then it never really caught fire, which at that point was the standard U2 set for themselves.

 

[BVS]

I'm guessing you weren't around back then?

 

[Nick66]

I'm guessing you weren't around back then?

I've been with U2 since War, and have seen every tour starting with TUF. Yeah, you could say I was around.

EDIT: Correction, I didn't get to the Lovetown tour.

 

[Hollow Island]

Well then I think you misunderstood U2 and that time period.



Electronic is not Electronica.

I understand U2 and that time period very well, and I also know that "electronica" didn't exist - it wasn't a form of music. It's an umbrella term to describe the vague, unfamiliar thing called "electronic music" created by lazy, square, out of touch rock journalists who were trying create a successor to "grunge" and were too lazy or didn't have sharp enough ears to tell different kinds of electronic music apart. No one with any self respect used that term.

Zooropa is an electronic pop/rock record, same as Pop, except Zooropa is a bit more pop and Pop is a bit more rock. Main thing is technology changed and electronic music changed a lot between 1993 and 1996, just as it always does. They were strongly influenced by current (at the time) electronic dance music, but the stuff at the top of the underground. For instance, AB was strongly influenced by grebo.

 

[Halup]

I find Bono's comments on Zooropa a little puzzling because I recall back in 1993, it was stated that they were intentionally making Zooropa a much lower key album than Achtung Baby. They initially were not releasing any commercial singles from it (other than the video single for Numb) on purpose. By not releasing singles, how would Bono expect there to be hits from the album? He seems to be a bit revisionist on what their intents were with the album back in 1993.

They only had 1 worldwide commercially released single and that was Stay, which was around 4 months after the release of the album, so it couldn't have been expected to take off the way it could have if released in July 93 along with the album. Lemon was a 12 inch single in the US and a CD single in Japan and Australia, but they clearly were not trying that hard to have big hits on the conventional singles chart with that album, which goes along with what was said before the album was released.

 

[morgan1098]

Zooropa sold well, but compared to Achtung Baby it was a letdown. And despite some MTV "hits", the album just didn't capture people's attention and imagination the way AB did. Despite being a fan favorite today, back then it never really caught fire, which at that point was the standard U2 set for themselves.

This is what worries me about our prospects of ever seeing a 2-CD deluxe edition of Zooropa. I love the album, but of course it didn't "connect" with the general public in the same way their earlier (and even some later) albums did. That's why you don't have anything from Zooropa on U218, which is a collection of their biggest singles from their biggest albums. When the general public thinks U2's "greatest hits," they think "One" and "Pride" and "With or Without You" and "Beautiful Day," not "Lemon" and "Numb" and "Stay."

Because of the elaborate (and admitedly quite nice) packaging, the list price for a U2 2-CD "deluxe edition" is now around $35. I don't blame U2 for thinking they wouldn't sell many copies of Zooropa at $35 a pop in today's music marketplace. That's why they chucked it in with the AB box set.

 

[BVS]

I've been with U2 since War, and have seen every tour starting with TUF. Yeah, you could say I was around.

EDIT: Correction, I didn't get to the Lovetown tour.

And you don't remember countless interviews about shaping the musical landscape of the time?

 

[BVS]

I understand U2 and that time period very well, and I also know that "electronica" didn't exist - it wasn't a form of music. It's an umbrella term to describe the vague, unfamiliar thing called "electronic music" created by lazy, square, out of touch rock journalists who were trying create a successor to "grunge" and were too lazy or didn't have sharp enough ears to tell different kinds of electronic music apart. No one with any self respect used that term.

Of course no self respecting artist would use the term. Just like they wouldn't use "alternative" or even "grunge" BUT you knew there was a difference between what people labeled as electronic and what they labeled electronica.

Zooropa is an electronic pop/rock record, same as Pop, except Zooropa is a bit more pop and Pop is a bit more rock. Main thing is technology changed and electronic music changed a lot between 1993 and 1996, just as it always does. They were strongly influenced by current (at the time) electronic dance music, but the stuff at the top of the underground. For instance, AB was strongly influenced by grebo.

Pop wore it's Chemical Brothers, Prodigy, and Orbital influences much more on it's sleeve than previous albums' influences. Everyone saw that at the time.

 

[Nick66]

And you don't remember countless interviews about shaping the musical landscape of the time?

I seem to remember some of that stuff associated with Achtung Baby, but not Zooropa. My memory is all that mostly came from critics, but U2 themselves were more playing the ironic pop stars and talked about screwing with the cultural landscape. But then again I was in grad school then and admittedly my memory of those days are a bit of pub induced haze. Having said that, I think a good rule of thumb is never trust anything Bono says about an album when he's in the middle of trying to sell that album (or didn't you know that Bomb was the best thing they ever did?)

What I do know is that Zooropa sold about 1/3 of what AB did, had no major hits, and now the band pretty much treats Zooropa (and its younger sibling Pop) like an unwanted step child (regrettably, IMO).

 

[Halup]

This is what worries me about our prospects of ever seeing a 2-CD deluxe edition of Zooropa. I love the album, but of course it didn't "connect" with the general public in the same way their earlier (and even some later) albums did. That's why you don't have anything from Zooropa on U218, which is a collection of their biggest singles from their biggest albums. When the general public thinks U2's "greatest hits," they think "One" and "Pride" and "With or Without You" and "Beautiful Day," not "Lemon" and "Numb" and "Stay."

Because of the elaborate (and admitedly quite nice) packaging, the list price for a U2 2-CD "deluxe edition" is now around $35. I don't blame U2 for thinking they wouldn't sell many copies of Zooropa at $35 a pop in today's music marketplace. That's why they chucked it in with the AB box set.

Zooropa sold better than both Boy and October which have 2-CD deluxe editions, so Zooropa could get it's own as well, but I'm not sure how well these deluxe editions of the early albums have sold. Maybe Universal and U2 won't do the whole catalog as originally intended if the sales are not up to expectations.

You're right about Zooropa not connecting with the audience. It sold over 2,000,000 copies in the US, which is better than what Pop did, but a lot of that was done just off the momemtum they had with Achtung Baby and Zoo TV and I know a lot of people didn't really get into the album after buying it. I think people wanted a more guitar oriented album after Achtung Baby and didn't get it.