PhilsFan
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Not sure what that has to do with anything.
MLB Thread 2012
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mikal
Blue Crack Addict
just sayin.... your decision making process would raise a red flag for my defense team. i'd send you home.
mikal
Blue Crack Addict
Interesting comments from Braun's press conference:
Some notes and quotes from Ryan Braun‘s press conference this afternoon:
• He thanked fans who “withheld judgements as I respected the confidentially of this case.”
• “I tried to respect this process even though the confidentially was breached early on.”
• “If I had done this intentionally or unintentionally I’d have been the first one to admit it. I truly believe this substance never entered my body.”
• “It hasn’t been easy. Lots of times I wanted to come out and tell the entire story, attack everybody like I’ve been attacked. My name was dragged through the mud. But at the end of the day I recognized what was best for the game of baseball.”
• “I truly believe that everything in life happens for a reason and I learned a long time ago to stop questioning what goes on in life. I’ve yet to understand the reason for this, but I don’t question that.”
• “Today is for anyone who has been wrongly accused and everyone who stood up for what’s right. It’s about future players and the game of baseball.”
• “Never been a personal medical issue, never had an STD. Many of the erroneous stories reported by the network continue to live on, which is disappointing.”
• “I will continue to take the high road. We won because the truth was on my side. I was a victim of a process that completely broke down and failed as it was applied to me in this case. Today’s about making sure this never happens to anyone else who plays this game.”
• “The system as it was applied to me in this case was fatally flawed.”
• Braun revealed that he was first made aware of test result on October 19, which was during the playoffs.
• “At the end of the day, I know the truth. My friends, family, teammates, and the Brewers organization know the truth.”
• “We spoke to biochemists and scients, and asked them how difficult it would be for someone to taint the sample. They said, if they were motivated, it would be extremely easy.”
• “Ultimately, as I sit here today, the system worked because I was innocent and I was able to prove my innocence.”
• Braun is “considering all my legal options.”
Some notes and quotes from Ryan Braun‘s press conference this afternoon:
• He thanked fans who “withheld judgements as I respected the confidentially of this case.”
• “I tried to respect this process even though the confidentially was breached early on.”
• “If I had done this intentionally or unintentionally I’d have been the first one to admit it. I truly believe this substance never entered my body.”
• “It hasn’t been easy. Lots of times I wanted to come out and tell the entire story, attack everybody like I’ve been attacked. My name was dragged through the mud. But at the end of the day I recognized what was best for the game of baseball.”
• “I truly believe that everything in life happens for a reason and I learned a long time ago to stop questioning what goes on in life. I’ve yet to understand the reason for this, but I don’t question that.”
• “Today is for anyone who has been wrongly accused and everyone who stood up for what’s right. It’s about future players and the game of baseball.”
• “Never been a personal medical issue, never had an STD. Many of the erroneous stories reported by the network continue to live on, which is disappointing.”
• “I will continue to take the high road. We won because the truth was on my side. I was a victim of a process that completely broke down and failed as it was applied to me in this case. Today’s about making sure this never happens to anyone else who plays this game.”
• “The system as it was applied to me in this case was fatally flawed.”
• Braun revealed that he was first made aware of test result on October 19, which was during the playoffs.
• “At the end of the day, I know the truth. My friends, family, teammates, and the Brewers organization know the truth.”
• “We spoke to biochemists and scients, and asked them how difficult it would be for someone to taint the sample. They said, if they were motivated, it would be extremely easy.”
• “Ultimately, as I sit here today, the system worked because I was innocent and I was able to prove my innocence.”
• Braun is “considering all my legal options.”
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
mikal said:
The court of law is different from the court of public opinion. Law would require me to admit that there is enough reasonable doubt in this case. But my own personal belief is that it is too far fetched that this is anything other than a technicality.
Barry Bonds could have been taking flax seed oil!
Do you have proof otherwise? Did you see him shove the needle in his butt? He never tested positive for anything.... he's clean!
Do you have proof otherwise? Did you see him shove the needle in his butt? He never tested positive for anything.... he's clean!
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
Maybe NO ONE did anything wrong.
Hewson
Blue Crack Supplier
Exactly. Manny Ramirez just wanted to get pregnant.
mikal
Blue Crack Addict
ok that's fine, but i still think you're in the wrong by accusing my comments of being premature while you're saying he's definitely guilty when all the evidence you have is that he tested positive on a test that did not follow protocol.
mikal
Blue Crack Addict
i also have to question why the sample collector decided to take the test home when there were Fed Ex facilities open until 9pm that night and a 24 hour Fed Ex facility in Milwaukee when the test was taken.
sounds like Braun may take legal action for having his name dragged through the mud. that would be classic if he sued ESPN.
sounds like Braun may take legal action for having his name dragged through the mud. that would be classic if he sued ESPN.
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
Dear Lord, again?
I said you were being premature in declaring him innocent when all we knew was that the appeal won. Then we got the information, and guess what? I was right: you were premature. Premature because he is, by most accounts, not innocent.
He's not definitely guilty, but with what we know, it's pretty outrageous to believe anything else.
mikal
Blue Crack Addict
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
But you're not proving anything. I am of the belief he was guilty and the story would have to have a major overhaul to convince me (and most other people) otherwise. Can I not be more fucking clear, or are you going to continue this game of semantics to defend your precious MVP for the next seven months?
mikal
Blue Crack Addict
Good article here by John Heyman from CBS Sports:
Braun should be considered innocent, not lucky
Posted on: February 24, 2012 2:58 pm
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Ryan Braun did not get off on a technicality. He should not be presumed guilty, especially now that he has proved he is not guilty. And he should not be seen as lucky, either.
If anything, Braun is unfortunate that the failed test result ever leaked. This system is supposed to secure confidentiality, but unfortunately, someone has loose lips. Surely not anyone with MLB nor certainly Braun's camp, but someone.
Braun was unfairly tagged a steroid cheat to start, and even now, after he won his case and proved there was no good, winning case against him, some are still calling it a "technicality'' that won the day, or even calling him lucky. Well, if having an unfair, unfortunate scarlet letter hanging over your normal-sized head is lucky, then that's him. Braun surely was elated to have prevailed. But he was said by friends to have felt "drained'' after spending his winter vacation gearing up for a fight and probably occasionally imagining the worst.
Well, the worst didn't happen. As it turns out, the system works. The Brewers' star was not guilty, and he should be considered not guilty. The independent arbitrator Shyam Das weighed the evidence for seven weeks and found the case against Braun stunk. Or at the very least, it wasn't proved.
Braun said he is innocent, and fairly, he should be seen that way.
This is actually that rare example of justice where the defendant is presumed guilty and has to prove one of two things, either 1) he's innocent, or 2) the test wasn't fair or proper. Since it's near to impossible to prove one's innocence beyond a shadow of a doubt (he passed a test of his own taking a couple weeks after the October test, but that has little to no value), this case obviously had issues, big issues.
The independent test taker held the sample for 48 hours, which makes no sense. While it's technically allowed by baseball for the fellow to refrigerate for two days as he did, or even keep it in his kid's room if he so desires, there is no good reason he couldn't find a FedEx open in Milwaukee. Baseball would say it's safer with him than on some shelf at a FedEx. But why does it have to be on a shelf at all? Baseball would also say other tests have sat on a shelf at FedEx, though it isn't known whether any of those samples came up positives. There are 24-hour FedExes all across the country, and certainly one in Milwaukee. There is also no reason the test taker would wait until 1:30 p.m. Monday to send it off. Did he have a lunch date? Did he bring it with him to his lunch date?
The question has to be asked now: Was it even Braun's sample? After a two-day lapse, who can be absolutely sure? And if it was, is it possible the sample was somehow contaminated? Baseball would argue that the jar was triple sealed, but the doubt wasn't sealed out. Someone close to Braun said there was evidence of deterioration in Braun's sample but not the other five samples taken that playoff weekend. MLB people deny that is the case, though even if that's not the case, there is still plenty of room for doubt either, here way.
Oddly, the test sample came up with a result that was not only the highest for testosterone among the 40,000 or so tests administered on thousands of major league players, it was actually three times higher than anyone else's ever. Is it possible as one WADA person suggested, that perhaps someone with this sort of result was just heavily juicing? Or perhaps is it possible there was something wrong with his sample ... if it even was his sample?
There is no claim here the sample keeper did anything seriously wrong, or even that he didn't abide by the rules laid out by MLB and the players' union. But is it enough? Doesn't this have to be 100 percent?
There isn't one iota or a smidgen of a scintilla of any other evidence against Braun, from his high school days in Southern California to the University of Miami (where one of his first-day hosts was Alex Rodriguez) to the Brewers. There isn't any evidence of extraordinary muscles, unusual head size or any back acne. There isn't one person who's come forward from his past to suggest he was a druggie, not even from one unnamed person. There isn't anything in Braun's statistics to suggest something weird was going on. He came into the league one of the best handful of hitters in the game and has remained at that level.
Baseball is obviously quite upset about the result of this case, but baseball's policy remains a strong one. Baseball people showed their justice is blind. Their people tried hard to enforce the result they had even though it was the National League MVP. Baseball is right, too, to provide the players with their day in court, because the procedure isn't perfect, even if the policy is vastly improved. The perception out there now is that there is something seriously wrong with baseball's program. But all that's been shown is that it isn't perfect (MLB is now 12-1 in arbitration rulings), and who ever thought it was? We already know it's imprecise. The very fellow with the sample is said to have called his boss to see if the refrigerator strange plan would work, so even wasn't so sure. Just like no one is perfect, no policy or procedure is, either.
The arbitration process itself isn't perfect, either. How else to explain why there is only one independent arbitrator alongside two ringers? Rob Manfred, the executive VP for labor and human relations at MLB, has a perfect 13-0 record voting on the side of MLB/process while players union chief Michael Weiner and his other reps also have a combined 13-0 record voting for the players. So the onus was all on Das in this case. Does it make any sense to have three arbitrators for a relatively insignificant salary arbitration hearing and only one for a hearing that will determine a man's good name? Shouldn't baseball be sure?
Braun is said by people close to him to have offered to take a DNA test. Meanwhile, one other person involved in the case claimed he first offered, then withdrew. There is bound to be some back and forth over exactly what was offered, what was done, and perhaps even what was leaked -- though in this case there isn't a claim by one side or the other that anyone closely involved in the case leaked the news of the positive test. It wouldn't make sense for either side to leak this info.
MLB has never leaked anything like that before. It understands the unfairness of such a leak, and more practically, they know they'd be sued if they ever did such a thing. Their whole program would be toast. And it goes without saying that Braun's side would never think of leaking such negative information about their own client. The leak is the one thing that ultimately damaged Braun here. What surely happened is that word got into the hands of a third party that had no stake in the case, some fellow who was anxious to tell someone what he knew. Braun's side may have talked to a lawyer or to before hiring David Cornwell. Maybe one of the unhired lawyers has a friend at ESPN and thought this might make an interesting story.Well, it certainly did. But it's a story with a surprise -- albeit fair --
Braun should be considered innocent, not lucky
Posted on: February 24, 2012 2:58 pm
PrintFacebookTwitterLog-in to rate:Log-in to rate:Log-in to rate:
Ryan Braun did not get off on a technicality. He should not be presumed guilty, especially now that he has proved he is not guilty. And he should not be seen as lucky, either.
If anything, Braun is unfortunate that the failed test result ever leaked. This system is supposed to secure confidentiality, but unfortunately, someone has loose lips. Surely not anyone with MLB nor certainly Braun's camp, but someone.
Braun was unfairly tagged a steroid cheat to start, and even now, after he won his case and proved there was no good, winning case against him, some are still calling it a "technicality'' that won the day, or even calling him lucky. Well, if having an unfair, unfortunate scarlet letter hanging over your normal-sized head is lucky, then that's him. Braun surely was elated to have prevailed. But he was said by friends to have felt "drained'' after spending his winter vacation gearing up for a fight and probably occasionally imagining the worst.
Well, the worst didn't happen. As it turns out, the system works. The Brewers' star was not guilty, and he should be considered not guilty. The independent arbitrator Shyam Das weighed the evidence for seven weeks and found the case against Braun stunk. Or at the very least, it wasn't proved.
Braun said he is innocent, and fairly, he should be seen that way.
This is actually that rare example of justice where the defendant is presumed guilty and has to prove one of two things, either 1) he's innocent, or 2) the test wasn't fair or proper. Since it's near to impossible to prove one's innocence beyond a shadow of a doubt (he passed a test of his own taking a couple weeks after the October test, but that has little to no value), this case obviously had issues, big issues.
The independent test taker held the sample for 48 hours, which makes no sense. While it's technically allowed by baseball for the fellow to refrigerate for two days as he did, or even keep it in his kid's room if he so desires, there is no good reason he couldn't find a FedEx open in Milwaukee. Baseball would say it's safer with him than on some shelf at a FedEx. But why does it have to be on a shelf at all? Baseball would also say other tests have sat on a shelf at FedEx, though it isn't known whether any of those samples came up positives. There are 24-hour FedExes all across the country, and certainly one in Milwaukee. There is also no reason the test taker would wait until 1:30 p.m. Monday to send it off. Did he have a lunch date? Did he bring it with him to his lunch date?
The question has to be asked now: Was it even Braun's sample? After a two-day lapse, who can be absolutely sure? And if it was, is it possible the sample was somehow contaminated? Baseball would argue that the jar was triple sealed, but the doubt wasn't sealed out. Someone close to Braun said there was evidence of deterioration in Braun's sample but not the other five samples taken that playoff weekend. MLB people deny that is the case, though even if that's not the case, there is still plenty of room for doubt either, here way.
Oddly, the test sample came up with a result that was not only the highest for testosterone among the 40,000 or so tests administered on thousands of major league players, it was actually three times higher than anyone else's ever. Is it possible as one WADA person suggested, that perhaps someone with this sort of result was just heavily juicing? Or perhaps is it possible there was something wrong with his sample ... if it even was his sample?
There is no claim here the sample keeper did anything seriously wrong, or even that he didn't abide by the rules laid out by MLB and the players' union. But is it enough? Doesn't this have to be 100 percent?
There isn't one iota or a smidgen of a scintilla of any other evidence against Braun, from his high school days in Southern California to the University of Miami (where one of his first-day hosts was Alex Rodriguez) to the Brewers. There isn't any evidence of extraordinary muscles, unusual head size or any back acne. There isn't one person who's come forward from his past to suggest he was a druggie, not even from one unnamed person. There isn't anything in Braun's statistics to suggest something weird was going on. He came into the league one of the best handful of hitters in the game and has remained at that level.
Baseball is obviously quite upset about the result of this case, but baseball's policy remains a strong one. Baseball people showed their justice is blind. Their people tried hard to enforce the result they had even though it was the National League MVP. Baseball is right, too, to provide the players with their day in court, because the procedure isn't perfect, even if the policy is vastly improved. The perception out there now is that there is something seriously wrong with baseball's program. But all that's been shown is that it isn't perfect (MLB is now 12-1 in arbitration rulings), and who ever thought it was? We already know it's imprecise. The very fellow with the sample is said to have called his boss to see if the refrigerator strange plan would work, so even wasn't so sure. Just like no one is perfect, no policy or procedure is, either.
The arbitration process itself isn't perfect, either. How else to explain why there is only one independent arbitrator alongside two ringers? Rob Manfred, the executive VP for labor and human relations at MLB, has a perfect 13-0 record voting on the side of MLB/process while players union chief Michael Weiner and his other reps also have a combined 13-0 record voting for the players. So the onus was all on Das in this case. Does it make any sense to have three arbitrators for a relatively insignificant salary arbitration hearing and only one for a hearing that will determine a man's good name? Shouldn't baseball be sure?
Braun is said by people close to him to have offered to take a DNA test. Meanwhile, one other person involved in the case claimed he first offered, then withdrew. There is bound to be some back and forth over exactly what was offered, what was done, and perhaps even what was leaked -- though in this case there isn't a claim by one side or the other that anyone closely involved in the case leaked the news of the positive test. It wouldn't make sense for either side to leak this info.
MLB has never leaked anything like that before. It understands the unfairness of such a leak, and more practically, they know they'd be sued if they ever did such a thing. Their whole program would be toast. And it goes without saying that Braun's side would never think of leaking such negative information about their own client. The leak is the one thing that ultimately damaged Braun here. What surely happened is that word got into the hands of a third party that had no stake in the case, some fellow who was anxious to tell someone what he knew. Braun's side may have talked to a lawyer or to before hiring David Cornwell. Maybe one of the unhired lawyers has a friend at ESPN and thought this might make an interesting story.Well, it certainly did. But it's a story with a surprise -- albeit fair --
mikal
Blue Crack Addict
i don't have to prove anything. MLB does, and they couldn't even close the deal in a guilty until proven innocent circumstance.
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
Gotcha. So you're just another homer.
mikal
Blue Crack Addict
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
It's not all I have left. Rather, I've said what I need to say quite clearly, and you keep responding by repeating your same, lame duck argument that doesn't address what's actually going on. So, I'm going to stop spinning my wheels trying to "debate" something when this is just a charade for you to champion Ryan Braun's moral superiority since the big bad MLB leaked the results that showed he's more than likely a cheater.
Again, I don't give a shit that the MLB leaked the results unless he was truly innocent. Few people believe he is, and with good reason, because he got off on a technicality. This whole thing about FedEx is great for the Brewers' postseason hopes, but won't do very much for public opinion because it's a technicality.
Ryan Braun is more than likely a cheater. You can accept it, or you can go back under your rock with your fingers in your ears, only pulling them out to masturbate to the idea of one day being exonerated by a big headline reading, "TURNS OUT RYAN BRAUN WAS TOTALLY INNOCENT, SUCK IT HATERS!" The choice is yours.
Again, I have no personal beef with you or Ryan Braun. I'm just taking an objective look at this, and there's really only one rational explanation. If Braun had some big "I'm Innocent" argument that we haven't heard, the time has come and gone.
Again, I don't give a shit that the MLB leaked the results unless he was truly innocent. Few people believe he is, and with good reason, because he got off on a technicality. This whole thing about FedEx is great for the Brewers' postseason hopes, but won't do very much for public opinion because it's a technicality.
Ryan Braun is more than likely a cheater. You can accept it, or you can go back under your rock with your fingers in your ears, only pulling them out to masturbate to the idea of one day being exonerated by a big headline reading, "TURNS OUT RYAN BRAUN WAS TOTALLY INNOCENT, SUCK IT HATERS!" The choice is yours.
Again, I have no personal beef with you or Ryan Braun. I'm just taking an objective look at this, and there's really only one rational explanation. If Braun had some big "I'm Innocent" argument that we haven't heard, the time has come and gone.
MrPryck2U
ONE love, blood, life
The person who is really guilty here is the sample handler. That fucker was too lazy to get his ass to FedEx in a timely fashion to say the least. It's all his fault.
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
I'm just glad to know FedEx has such great hours.
MrPryck2U
ONE love, blood, life
Yes, but not good enough for the sample handler to get there.
Obviously, there's some comedy material here:
Sample handler's child: "Hey dad, is that lemonade?"
Sample handler: "No, son, it's Ryan Braun's urine."
Child: "Fedex closes at 9pm, dad! You better get your sorry ass down there before it closes!"
SH: "Don't sweat it! Nothing will go wrong!"
Sample handler's wife: "How many times do I have to tell you to not leave urine samples in the fridge too long?"
I still don't get the "technicality" argument (and I couldn't care less about Braun). I see this as similar to a police search without a warrant (in the sense that it invalidates the process regardless of results). There are reasons why these checks are in place, due process being the key one. I wouldn't call this a technicality. And I'm not ready (nor competent) to say that there are no implications, scientifically, of delaying the test in 48hrs (what's the impact on the probability of a false positive?).
Does that mean Braun did not use PEDs? Not necessarily. But based on what we know, I am not ready to say he is guilty either.
Does that mean Braun did not use PEDs? Not necessarily. But based on what we know, I am not ready to say he is guilty either.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
I don't think it's as simple as 'searched without a warrant'. I'm fairly certain it was an 'oopsie' that occurred rather than a case of 'doing something that will invalidate your case even if you know it will invalidate your case.' Could be wrong though, I haven't looked too deeply into the fine details of the story.
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
It's more like they had the warrant but they mishandled the evidence they found in a very minor way.
I've had this argument before... only last time "Ryan Braun" was "the Packers" and "dis nothing wrong despite it being obvious to everyone that he isn't" was "have a great defense despite being obvious to everyone that they don't"
mikal
Blue Crack Addict
Edit. Not worth the energy.
mikal
Blue Crack Addict
I'm sure that's just another homer dig. Have your fun I guess.
yea... Fred Wilpon announced that the Mets financial situation is fine! they just sold 7 of 12 potential $20 million dollar shares in the team for an influx of cash!
yea... turns out that the shares he sold? sold 'em to family members and SNY, the mets network, of which the wilpons are majority owners.
so they just sold 7 shares to themselves.
they are so fucked.
yea... turns out that the shares he sold? sold 'em to family members and SNY, the mets network, of which the wilpons are majority owners.
so they just sold 7 shares to themselves.
they are so fucked.
MrPryck2U
ONE love, blood, life
Unfortunately, the fans are fucked even worse. The Wilpons are shitbags.
MrPryck2U
ONE love, blood, life
I wonder if Bobby V ever considered quitely enforcing his new alcohol ban instead of informing the media about.
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