should i call back?

[digsy]

ok, about a year ago my best friend screwed me over really badly, like horribly horribly so.

we lived together which just made the whole drawn our collapse of our relationship even worse and it stayed that way for about 6 months.
He did me some pretty severe damage and i was a total mess at the time and for a good while afterwards. its something i'm still trying desperately hard to get over because no one ever in my entire life hurt me as bad as this one guy did - one of lifes little cruel ironies is that the people you care for the most are the ones who can hurt you the most.

Anyway, i haven't seen or heard from him since he moved out about 6 months ago - i've since moved myself - but then i got a text message from him on my birthday a few weeks ago.

I haven't responded and wasn't going to bother to go there again but i'm beginning to wonder if I should?

I was talking today to someone and, as often happens, i bought up some story about "my housemate and i used to" or "one time Al and I" etc etc etc.
The thing is, i miss what we had soooooo badly.
When we were friends we had so much fun together and I've got so many really good memories - i really loved that guy. So I'm starting to wonder, if he's tried to contact me again, whether i should maybe try to reconcile all this and start talking again.

But then i wonder, considering how badly this guy hurt me, why would i want to open myself back up to that again, would that be foolish? I mean, is it a lost cause to try get on with him again because am I ever really gonna get over what he did, or am i just holding a grudge which is stupid?

Part of me wishes things could go back to how they were, but at the same time that thought is overshadowed by the memory of how much he hurt me.

so do i forget the message, ignore it possibly never see or hear from him again ruining any chances i have of maybe getting the friendship back, or do i call back, open the communication again and expose myself to what could potentially be a great relationship or a destructive and harmful one?

which is more stupid, to give it a second chance and get fcked over again, or not and miss out on what was and could again be an incredible friendship.

 

[BluRmGrl]

The eternal 'Do I blow him off because he was a bastard or do I take the high road & call back because I really miss him & I'm willing to forgive him his trepasses'?

I don't envy you, digsy, that's for sure. From personal experience though, I can give you this advice: If you truly can forgive him for his transgression, call him. If nothing else, thank him for remembering your birthday. Go from there; be friendly but guarded. Test the waters. If it seems he's looking for forgiveness and wants to make up, you can take the high road, forgive & forget and see where it takes you. Or, if you prefer, you can resolve to be polite and nothing else.

What you can't do is start out one way & then switch. Consistency, my dear. Bottom line, it sounds like you really fell for the guy & would always wonder "What if?" - the only way to answer that question is to speak with him again.

I wish you the best no matter what decision you make!

 

[digsy]

ok, firstly i need to point out that i never had feelings for the guy, was never in love or fell for him or anything. that seems to have been part of the problem because apparently he was harbouring some pretty intense feelings for me and when it became clear (after 2 fcking years) it wasn't going to happen he hit back at me with the most painful shot he had, i guess to hurt me as bad as he was maybe hurting (totally long story....)

but for the time we were friends it was only, and never any more, friends and i always thought that was understood between us. just very very close friends which was very important to me. i take my friendships pretty seriously and more to heart than i ever have any relationship (explains why i'm single!) so it could only be a friend that would actually hurt as deeply as this.

but taht aside, you've got some pretty good advice none the less which i'll def mull over, thanks!

 

[redkat]

I had a similar experience in college. I went away with my best friend we shared a room and our relationship was destroyed within a few months. It was truly awful!

We didn't speak for a couple years probably. Then a mutual friend was getting married and knowing we would have to deal with each other I wrote her a letter. Wanting to put things aside wish her the best and hope we can move on. I felt relieved honestly to do it.

We did move on and it was emotional for both of us. We are not close friends to this day, too much had happened but at least there are no hard feelings and I can live with that.

I can't stand to lose a friend and I'd probably contact him I normally do whatever is needed to save a friendship.

 

[Mr. BAW]

If you open that door, he'll stick his foot in, guaranteed...take a lesson from the other men and women here who have posted similar situations...Don't do it, even if its to say thank you for the birthday wish...you'll regret it.

I'm a man...I was there...I was him...good luck.

 

[digsy]

interesting Mr BAW, thanks
see thats it - i'm torn between remembering how great he was and wanting to try capture that again, and wanting to smother him with a pillow in his sleep... theres a lot of anger there still!

 

[Party Boy]

I think I would be more inclined to write back and meet him. Mainly to figure out what the hell happened and why he did what he did. 6 months have now passed and I guess your in a stronger position now then you were 6 months ago - by that I mean emotionally - he can't hurt you any more than he already has - so now maybe its time to figure out why the hell he did what he did and so you can put some sort of closure on it.

By the sounds of things, you probably will never get back to the friendship level you had before because whatever he did will always be in the back of your mind. However, sometimes to move on, you have to go back and understand for whatever reasons why certain things happened.

Whatever you decide, best of luck with it!

 

[redkat]

I think the only reason to respond is to get past it.

If it's something that bothers you, and for me un resolved relationships REALLY bother me.

 

[joyfulgirl]

I had a very similar experience last summer with my best friend (who is gay, which I mention only because there weren't any romantic feelings on either part to complicate the issues), and with whom I also shared a house. But I felt really hurt and was pretty devastated all summer, swearing I would never allow him in my life again. But when he extended that olive branch, I realized how much I love him and how connected we are. So we talked it all out, made some adjustments in terms of boundaries, and have experienced a beautiful healing. The friendship is even stronger now. Sometimes things have to fall apart before they can be healed. I know it doesn't always work out that way, though. Sometimes things that fall apart aren't meant to be put back together. Only you know whether he is someone you want in your life again and if you decide he is, you have to really, sincerely, want to put it behind you and start anew. You really cannot hold on to any resentments or keep returning to "I can't believe he did that to me" or continue to blame and keep score moving forward. Chances are, you both had your part in it anyway.

Good luck.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I completely understand your fear of being hurt again. I have been through that, some people I have had to cut out of my life because the hurt was beyond repair.

I believe in giving people second chances sometimes, but I also believe they have to prove themselves ie that they have no intention of reverting to the hurtful behavior and that they truly regret it. He took the first step, maybe you could take a "baby step" and send him a brief thank you message. If your relationship continues, I think you should talk it out with him honestly first before you proceed.

It's always in the back of my mind-"fool me twice, shame on me" but even if you do get hurt again at least you'll always have the satisfaction that you were willing to give him that second chance and you can be proud of that rather than beat yourself up over it.

 

[indra]

ok, firstly i need to point out that i never had feelings for the guy, was never in love or fell for him or anything. that seems to have been part of the problem because apparently he was harbouring some pretty intense feelings for me and when it became clear (after 2 fcking years) it wasn't going to happen he hit back at me with the most painful shot he had, i guess to hurt me as bad as he was maybe hurting (totally long story....)

So you hurt him unintentionally (by not having romantic feelings for him), then he hurts you intentionally, and you are trying to decide whether or not to give him another chance?

I know I'm gonna sound like a cold hearted bitch, but to me he has already shown his colours, and they weren't at all flattering. I'd continue to move on without him.

But you have to do what is right for you.

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

I had a friend who hurt me over and over again and the friendship ended up dissolving about 4 years ago. She contacted me about six months later, and I was cautious and long story short, I ended up brushing her off because I was afraid to go down that road again. Then I regretted not talking to her so i called her about two years ago and we talked on the phone then met up at the bookstore we always used to hang out at, but after promising to keep in touch, we never did.

What I'm saying is, I think her and I both gave it the old college try before figuring out that our friendship was in the past and whatever happened was unrepairable.

Good luck whatever you decide to do. I'm a curious bitch so I'd probably at least text back.

 

[digsy]

It's always in the back of my mind-"fool me twice, shame on me"

So you hurt him unintentionally (by not having romantic feelings for him), then he hurts you intentionally, and you are trying to decide whether or not to give him another chance?

I know I'm gonna sound like a cold hearted bitch, but to me he has already shown his colours, and they weren't at all flattering. I'd continue to move on without him.

so these are the 2 quotes that are sticking with me and pretty much express my biggest concerns.

he has shown his true colours which painted him as a spineless coward when it came to the crunch but as someone pointed out, i'm not without fault either here.
it was after all me who officially ended it with the immortal words "you can fuck off and get the fuck out of my life".
the only thing is i kind of expected him to fight back slightly, you know, stand up for himself and make a bit of an effort to rescue the friendship - if one of my other friends told me to fuck off i'd be on my knees grovelling for weeks try figure out what i did that was so wrong and try fix it!
but he just didn't react at all, he just looked at me and raised his shoulders in a kinda shrug, so i walked away quickly before i punched him. and after that it seems he took me at my word and never attempted any sort of conversation or reconcilliation. i guess i tried to bluff him into action and he called me on it.

but then when i look back at that behaviour from him, i wonder why on earth i'd want a friend that either just didn't care as much as i thought he did (despite his protestations prior to that when we were trying to work it out) or who was so weak that he couldn't or wouldn't stand up for what he cared or believed in.

i mean that was how things really came to a head and got to that point - i was sick of trying so hard to fix things and trying to discuss it, with him crying and promising how much he cared and how much he wanted to save the friendship but then not actually doing anything about it and still going on with the same behaviour, so that 2 weeks later we'd be back having the same conversation and he'd be crying again promising he was gonna try and how much he cared and didn't want to lose me. i'm like, well if you care so much, have the fcking balls to actually make an effort to correct your actions and do something about it. But he didn't and hence in a moment of heated anger i told him to fuck off which he duly did

you know, i really probably dont want him as my friend again - after everything i gave him over 2 years he wasn't willing to fight for it so its probably not worth it.
so really the question is whether i should respond to maybe just try resolve it so i can get over it?
but is contacting him back really gonna resolve things or is it just gonna dredge it all back up again - its just that this is still (obviously) a very sore nerve for me filled with a lot of raw emotion and i don't know if i'm actually strong enough to speak or see him again with out wanting to either burst into tears or slam his head into a wall repeatedly (very weird and conflicinting emotions that terrify me!)

argh, BASTARD!
why on earth have i let someone so obviously not worth it rip me up inside for over a year

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Yikes, that sounds bad. I don't know, I am wary of letting people hurt me again unless my gut tells me that they are really very good people and that it is worth working out. For me the other person making the first move goes a long way towards healing (and more than just a birthday message obviously), but it sounds to me like you have to do some healing on your own before you are ready to let this person in your life if you really are at all. Actions speak so much louder than words do, like you said he had words before but no actions to back those words up. For you he needs to have more than words this time, and you won't know that unless he shows you clearly.

People can change, how much they can is really the question obviously.

 

[joyfulgirl]

after everything i gave him over 2 years he wasn't willing to fight for it so its probably not worth it.

I honestly think this is a fundamental difference between men and women and the different ways we handle things. Men go off and think about it. Women are emotional and want to talk it out and fix it right now. I've had this experience over and over and over with men and it isn't that women are right and men are wrong, it's just we process things differently.

I'm not taking up for the guy at all, but whenever I've told a guy it was over, they just said okay and accepted it and walked away to deal with their feelings privately. Just because they don't get hysterical the way women do don't mean they aren't hurt or saddened. I've had a lot of men tell me directly that when women get overly emotional and angry they don't know what to do but retreat. Since accepting this difference, I have had much better success in communicating with men when I am calm and reasonable instead of emotional. It's a classic male vs. female communication gap.

That said, it does sound like this one is still too charged for you. And unfortunately it's really hard for men and women to be friends when one has romantic feelings. I feel your pain and hope it all works out.

 

[VintagePunk]

I honestly think this is a fundamental difference between men and women and the different ways we handle things. Men go off and think about it. Women are emotional and want to talk it out and fix it right now. I've had this experience over and over and over with men and it isn't that women are right and men are wrong, it's just we process things differently.

I'm not taking up for the guy at all, but whenever I've told a guy it was over, they just said okay and accepted it and walked away to deal with their feelings privately. Just because they don't get hysterical the way women do don't mean they aren't hurt or saddened. I've had a lot of men tell me directly that when women get overly emotional and angry they don't know what to do but retreat. Since accepting this difference, I have had much better success in communicating with men when I am calm and reasonable instead of emotional. It's a classic male vs. female communication gap.

That said, it does sound like this one is still too charged for you. And unfortunately it's really hard for men and women to be friends when one has romantic feelings. I feel your pain and hope it all works out.

Thank you! I'm sure you've helped Digsy, but that was also something I needed to hear right now, too.

Male-female communication differences.

 

[digsy]

I honestly think this is a fundamental difference between men and women and the different ways we handle things. Men go off and think about it. Women are emotional and want to talk it out and fix it right now. I've had this experience over and over and over with men and it isn't that women are right and men are wrong, it's just we process things differently.

I'm not taking up for the guy at all, but whenever I've told a guy it was over, they just said okay and accepted it and walked away to deal with their feelings privately. Just because they don't get hysterical the way women do don't mean they aren't hurt or saddened. I've had a lot of men tell me directly that when women get overly emotional and angry they don't know what to do but retreat. Since accepting this difference, I have had much better success in communicating with men when I am calm and reasonable instead of emotional. It's a classic male vs. female communication gap.

That said, it does sound like this one is still too charged for you. And unfortunately it's really hard for men and women to be friends when one has romantic feelings. I feel your pain and hope it all works out.

while i do see what you're saying and and agree that communication differences was probably a huge obstacle in this, it wasn't the final nail in the coffin.
regarding men wanting to go away and think about it - we'd already been doing that for almost 3 months. 3 months of back and forth, back and forth, talk about it, he thinks about it, does it again, talk about it, think about it, fuck up again.

while the final "showdown" was a pretty emotional on on my part, that was only after 2 months of a very slow process in which there was plenty of time for him to think and accept and process what was going on. it was the fact that he didn't do any of that despite numurous opportunities that bought about this final situation. i made another attempt to fix things and extended an invitation to a night out with the hope that we could get things back on track. he blatantly lied to me when he said no he couldn't , his mom was sick so he had to go home (not unusual) and wasn't going anywhere that night. i found him in the corner of the pub where he'd been trying to hide when he saw me

it was the final straw after id put in so much goddamn effort and he'd sat back and done nothing.
and i wasn't looking for hysterics or buckets of emotion on his part, but all i got was a shrug of the shoulders? i mean surely i'm not expecting too much to want a bit more of a reaction than that?
how emotionally retarded am i supposed to expect this guy to be?

that said, i dont think i'll ever fully understand men - we are just so different in some aspects in a wonder we can communicate at all!

but thanks for your advice, communication was definitely was part of the problem and hopefully something i can learn from.

 

[joyfulgirl]

I hear you. I just wanted to reassure you, for what it's worth, that just because he didn't "fight" for the friendship didn't necessarily mean he didn't care. But it all sounds very painful and perhaps the chemistry between you is just too volatile to have a clean resolution.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I completely agree about the communication differences but some men use that as a way out, as a cop out.

Seems to me if you care enough about someone, you can make enough effort to get beyond that. Isn't that an important part of any relationship? Too often the woman is stifling her feelings, not being true to herself because of those differences and that's not healthy.

 

[joyfulgirl]

I guess I just don't agree that shrugging in response to "you can fuck off and get the fuck out of my life" is such a horrible thing. I mean, if it's come to that, to the point where emotions are that high, it's best to just let it go and back off for the moment. It doesn't mean I wouldn't cry my eyes out when I got home; it would just mean there really isn't anything to say in that moment to make it better. I'm guessing that anything he might have said in that moment would not have been heard. That's just based on my experience, though. And believe me, I've said a lot of similar things in the heat of the moment!

 

[digsy]

yeah, i hear you. there was nothing to say then that could have made a difference, you're right there.
it probably wasn't the most subtle choice of words and i may have been able to do better but i was at the end of 2 months of intense hurt and at the end of my tether really.

so yeah, maybe expeciting a reaction other than what i got is slightly unfair, but we lived together for another 4 months (hell on earth) and after that he never tried anything to make it better.
for him life seemed to go on fine while i was falling apart.

i just don't understand how you can let something go so easily

 

[digsy]

that said, i appreciate your comments , they're really helpful.
like you say, i guess it really did come down to communication - the crux of the matter at the end of the day is i just don't understand why he acted and behaved like he did?
if that isn't a complete failure of communication then i dont know what is!

 

[joyfulgirl]

I find I still have more to say, lol, so let me know when you're done with this conversation!

it probably wasn't the most subtle choice of words and i may have been able to do better but i was at the end of 2 months of intense hurt and at the end of my tether really.

I totally understand. Just to clarify, I didn't mean to sound like I was scolding you for saying that; like I said, I've said similar (and worse) things in the heat of the moment many times, and received similar responses to the shrug. In fact, the only reason I am even posting in this thread is because I can relate to your experience so well and my experience with my friend last summer is still so fresh (though we have patched things up, I'm still looking at what happened so as not to recreate it with him or anyone again). Getting the shrug is infuriating and yet as time passed when I asked myself what response could he (any of them!) have given that would have been satisfying, I knew there wasn't one because I was in such a state that I would have rejected anything he'd have said. At best, if he'd have said "I'm so sorry it turned out like this" I might have still rejected it in that moment because of all of the built-up hurt but perhaps after some time passed when he called to reconnect I might have been more open to hearing from him because he had at least said he was sorry in the midst of an awful fight. But we hardly ever say the right thing when we are so upset.

the crux of the matter at the end of the day is i just don't understand why he acted and behaved like he did?

Okay, well here's something to think about...in terms of that final straw when he blatantly lied to you...

I heard it said once that people lie because the person they're lying to can't hear the truth. I always go back to that when I catch someone in an awful lie that hurts me. So I ask myself what was my behavior--either through actions or a nonverbal vibe--leading up to the lie that made them think they couldn't tell me the truth. Sometimes I end up realizing, "well...actually they have been honest with me at times when it was hard to be honest and I got really pissy so I can see why he thought it wasn't safe to tell the truth even though the truth is always better regardless of the other person's reaction" and other times I just don't get why they lied and I think they were just flat out wrong. It's worth thinking about.

In terms of why he didn't change his behavior...sometimes our behavior is so hard-wired that it becomes very mechanical and takes a long time to change. Yesterday I promised myself I was going to be more patient with other drivers and was sure that I could do that, and an hour ago on my lunch hour I was seized by a moment of road rage over nothing. Not only that, but I've had this conversation with myself for years and I am still working on patience.

Even so, it doesn't mean we always have to stick around while someone else tries to change their behavior when it is affecting us so adversely.

Maybe I am too interested in seeing things from the other person's point of view but I do try to look at things from all sides--it's just part of my process.

Then again, sometimes you just have to say fuck it, it's not worth all the energy I'm putting into it trying to figure it out!

 

[indra]

Okay, well here's something to think about...in terms of that final straw when he blatantly lied to you...

I heard it said once that people lie because the person they're lying to can't hear the truth. I always go back to that when I catch someone in an awful lie that hurts me. So I ask myself what was my behavior--either through actions or a nonverbal vibe--leading up to the lie that made them think they couldn't tell me the truth. Sometimes I end up realizing, "well...actually they have been honest with me at times when it was hard to be honest and I got really pissy so I can see why he thought it wasn't safe to tell the truth even though the truth is always better regardless of the other person's reaction" and other times I just don't get why they lied and I think they were just flat out wrong. It's worth thinking about.

I'm sorry, but that rational sounds too much like "You made me beat you," to be taken anywhere near seriously. Someone who pulls that line is trying to deflect all blame from him and put it right back on you -- and from your answer you're taking it! I'll admit it's very clever -- "I care for you so much that I lie to you because I dont want you to be hurt and you aren't strong enough to be told the truth." How incredibly patronising!

 

[namkcuR]

Everybody has given pretty good advice so far, but for the most part it's all based on their own experiences that sort of match the gist of what you described in your original post.

(Luckily, perhaps)I haven't yet had any experiences like that, so obviously I can't give any advice based on experiences I haven't had. I guess it would be easier to offer my thoughts if you told us what the guy did - no details needed, just a one sentence summary would suffice - but I understand if that's still too painful or private or what have you, to share on a forum.

The only thing I can say right now is that, as much as there are certain general situations that a lot of people have had(as evidenced by the replies in this thread), the people within those situations are always different, and how you make your decisions in your situation has to be about the people within your situation - you and the guy. You know both yourself and the guy better than any of us ever will, so what it comes down to is, knowing what you do, is there any way you could ever trust him again. Trust is the basis of relationships, and if you don't have that, you don't have a relationship.

Outside of general advice like that, I think I'd have to know what the guy did to offer more specific advice, but, like I said, it's perfectly understandable if you don't want to divulge that.

 

[joyfulgirl]

I'm sorry, but that rational sounds too much like "You made me beat you," to be taken anywhere near seriously. Someone who pulls that line is trying to deflect all blame from him and put it right back on you -- and from your answer you're taking it! I'll admit it's very clever -- "I care for you so much that I lie to you because I dont want you to be hurt and you aren't strong enough to be told the truth." How incredibly patronising!

Well, I really disagree. And you've completely changed the meaning. It isn't necessarily that they lie because they care for you so much that they don't want you to be hurt, but because they are afraid of your anger or any one of a million reasons. Not only have I absolutely experienced people lying to me because I have given them reason to think that I overreact to the truth, I have also lied for the same reason. I'm not saying it's right (I actually said the truth is always better regardless of the person's reaction); in fact it's quite cowardly, but it happens. She didn't understand his behavior, I was offering one possibility for it--a possible explanation, not an excuse. It's also a way of trying to take responsibility for your part in something rather than blaming. I personally believe that I am responsible for my own experience therefore I am always trying to look for how I created it. That doesn't mean I *blame* myself for everything in a low self-esteem way; quite the opposite. It is empowering to me to know that I am responsible for my experiences and I can change them in an instant by altering my viewpoint. If I didn't practice that on a regular basis, I would be a pretty miserable person, but that's just me.

Also, the person who said that to me wasn't "pulling a line on me," it was someone I consider to be an expert on human behavior.

 

[joyfulgirl]

oops

 

[Liesje]

Digsy, I'm sorry to hear your friend hurt you so much.

Back in high school, one of my best friends since elementary school basically turned into a compulsive liar and kleptomaniac. She spent all of her time "being there" for people in our group of friends, but then she'd run to the other friends and spread gossip, like tell secrets we'd confided in her, or just say we said things that we never did, just so she could always feel like she was important. She also stole money from every one of us. It really bugged me b/c we'd been such great friends for so long and on the surface, we never fought, we loved to do things together....but she was turning all my friends against each other and stealing my little sister's lunch money. I kinda let it slide until freshman year of college when I confronted her about the whole thing. She continually denied stealing from us and said I was the one being mean (even though SHE stole $300 out of our friend's ATM and it's recorded on camera). I finally said, you know, I really have good times with you, but I feel like you're just bringing me down because you're bringing yourself down not admitting what you've done to us and not being willing to change, so I can't be your friend anymore. It sucked and I still miss the things we used to all do together, but to my knowledge she hasn't changed for the better and I simply decided she can't be a part of my life if she thinks it's OK to treat "friends" that way and not face up to it.

I guuess to answer your question of whether or not to call your friend...do you think he's changed? Do you think he understands how much he hurt you? He doesn't have to get on his hands and knees and plead, but if he can't accept that what he did hurt you even if he doesn't think it's a big deal, then I'd stay away. I wouldn't want a "true" friend that couldn't empathize.

 

[girlhappy]

I have been there so many times that..i am not sure if i am the right person to give you any advice. The thing is: I am all up for second chances and all that but unfortunately in my opinion (and experience) sometimes we just dont want to see what is loud and clear in the first place. I dont know...it depends from friend to friend i guess. If you go into relationship with him again you have to be extra-careful and like someone said YOU NEED TO TALK ABOUT IT FIRST. That way you will see if he can feel your pain and how much he cares. Maybe he wont be that open but in my opinion if someone really cares for you he will try to re-bulid your trust. And my advice would be...be open for new friends! Sometimes it is better to end friendship because it is time to move on. Anyways...

 

[digsy]

righty ho, firstly thanks to all of you who helped me out here.
while there were a few conflicting opinions as to what i should do and, because i never divulged the whole story behind the split, most of you were giving advice "blindly" i still appreciate everything everyone said.

i think just getting it out there and being able to explain how i felt and run through what he did in the aftermath again has really helped. with that in mind i've decided NOT to text him back, for now at least.

firstly, i'm not even remotely ready to deal with him again even in the simplest form and secondly i've decided i dont really see the point - will i ever trust this person again? no. will it ever be like i wish it was again? no. after all that, do i really want this person as my friend? no

sooooo, with that in mind i'm leaving it for now.
i may decide at a later stage to try resolve things but right now, i'm not in a strong enough position emotionally to resolve anything - it'll just get me very down again which i could do without (2005 started like that, i don't want 2006 as the same)

This was a really big deal to me and i'm glad i could get it slightly sorted in my head, so thanks again to all of you - everyone and everything they said, whether i completely agreed or not, helped me in one way or another.