The War Against Boys

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by jeevey

America is the fucking pits for feminists, imo.

I couldn't disagree more.

[jeevey]

There are worse places, it's true. We don't face the same challenges that women do in the Congo or Saudi Arabia. The internet has given women a lot of public voice that they couldn't get through mainstream media. But we lag behind the rest of the developed world on almost every measure of women's wellbeing and gender equity. Not even to go into all the ways that violence against and domination over women is still institutionalized and accepted, we still regularly have to have a conversation about if feminism is important or valid. That to me is the most depressing thing.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by jeevey

There are worse places, it's true. We don't face the same challenges that women do in the Congo or Saudi Arabia. The internet has given women a lot of public voice that they couldn't get through mainstream media. But we lag behind the rest of the developed world on almost every measure of women's wellbeing and gender equity. Not even to go into all the ways that violence against and domination over women is still institutionalized and accepted, we still regularly have to have a conversation about if feminism is important or valid. That to me is the most depressing thing.

Do you have statistics and examples to back this up?

[BonosSaint]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Do you have statistics and examples to back this up?

The Global Gender Gap Is Closing, But The U.S. Is Still Failing Its Women - Forbes

The Global Gender Gap Report 2012 | World Economic Forum - The Global Gender Gap Report 2012

International Comparison '.org': Internationa Gender Equality Statistics

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by BonosSaint

The Global Gender Gap Is Closing, But The U.S. Is Still Failing Its Women - Forbes The Global Gender Gap Report 2012 | World Economic Forum - The Global Gender Gap Report 2012 International Comparison '.org': Internationa Gender Equality Statistics

These are all interesting, and it seems, as in so many polls, that Scandinavia -- with its robust social welfare programs -- leads the pack in so many ways. There's lots we can learn from them.

None of these seem to give any credence at all to the hyperbolic language used in previous posts, nor the headline that the US is "failing" it's women. It seems as if the same socioeconomic issues that plague the US as a whole is the same for women.

Given my own experiences in North America and Europe, I'd say that women in NA are less restricted by traditional notions of gender roles -- as has been noted, Europe has a degree of social conservativism that's always struck me as strange. The weird French resistance to SSM (seen in the "manif pour tous" demonstrations) were rooted much more in essentialist notions of masculinity and femininity than actual opposition to homosexuality. Anecdotally, I can vouch that issues such as date rape are much more open over here, and I have never heard of anyone having to buy a fake wedding ring to avoid catcalling as friends if mine had to do in Italy, Spain, etc.

[Irvine511]

When I'm off my mobile I'll provide more examples.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Given my own experiences in North America and Europe, I'd say that women in NA are less restricted by traditional notions of gender roles -- as has been noted, Europe has a degree of social conservativism that's always struck me as strange. The weird French resistance to SSM (seen in the "manif pour tous" demonstrations) were rooted much more in essentialist notions of masculinity and femininity than actual opposition to homosexuality. Anecdotally, I can vouch that issues such as date rape are much more open over here, and I have never heard of anyone having to buy a fake wedding ring to avoid catcalling as friends if mine had to do in Italy, Spain, etc.

From what I've heard, Europeans treat sexual harassment like it is no big deal. I had friends who studied abroad in Italy or France, and whenever a guy pinched their ass, they were mocked for complaining about it.

[BonosSaint]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

These are all interesting, and it seems, as in so many polls, that Scandinavia -- with its robust social welfare programs -- leads the pack in so many ways. There's lots we can learn from them.

None of these seem to give any credence at all to the hyperbolic language used in previous posts, nor the headline that the US is "failing" it's women. It seems as if the same socioeconomic issues that plague the US as a whole is the same for women.

Given my own experiences in North America and Europe, I'd say that women in NA are less restricted by traditional notions of gender roles -- as has been noted, Europe has a degree of social conservativism that's always struck me as strange. The weird French resistance to SSM (seen in the "manif pour tous" demonstrations) were rooted much more in essentialist notions of masculinity and femininity than actual opposition to homosexuality. Anecdotally, I can vouch that issues such as date rape are much more open over here, and I have never heard of anyone having to buy a fake wedding ring to avoid catcalling as friends if mine had to do in Italy, Spain, etc.

I was looking for graphs and charts and statistics for you, so take no responsibility for the headline of US is failing its women. I googled international comparisons of gender equality, not "Proof women are fucked".

All of our experiences and observations are pretty much by definition limited, which does not mean they are not interesting ideas to consider, but are not definitive. I would also guess that it is possible you might be missing the nuance of the experience because it does not fall under your radar in the way straights will miss the nuance of gays' experiences and whites will miss the nuance of a black experience, however objectively attentive they may think they are. The status is not the same.

And while certainly the socio-economic situation affects men as well as women in US, the study is not on how women are doing when compared to men in their respective countries, not how women are doing as a sole indicator.

Date rape and cat calling have never been my main interest it this. So while we can talk date rape and not have to wear fake wedding rings (which actually appear to many US men to be a come-on , so what would be the point?)

I'm interested in leadership roles and the inclusion of more women in tenured science and math and philosophy, of stronger networking between women,
of society finding more adjectives to describe us than the limited array we get which might happen if we weren't lumped in as another class and seen as the individuals we are.

I would like to have a discussion about the essentialism of masculine and feminine and see where we all stand and it is a subject that interests me and affects us all.

However, I will stop here because this is a thread about the boys and I don't want to shortchange them.

[jeevey]

The catcalling is a serious issue, no doubt, and I do hear that it's worse in places like Italy than here. However, Europe's better social support for children and families is way ahead of the US in creating quality of life for women. Their better economic equality makes a huge difference, too.

Bono Saint, I'm taking a class right now on 20th century American masculinity. It's fascinating, and hearing how the young men's speech reveals thoughts about essentialism and gender roles is most fascinating of all. It's a great subject but I don't think it could be done justice in a forum like this.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by jeevey

America is the fucking pits for feminists, imo.

Speaking of feminists and pits...

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by jeevey

Bono Saint, I'm taking a class right now on 20th century American masculinity. It's fascinating, and hearing how the young men's speech reveals thoughts about essentialism and gender roles is most fascinating of all. It's a great subject but I don't think it could be done justice in a forum like this.

How could it not do justice here in FYM? I don't understand why you think like this.

I see nothing wrong with treating both boys and girls with respect. Turning the tables does not sound like a rational, wise way to solve problems. I think it is highly possible to teach boys that girls are equal to them while still allowing them to be boys - high energy and all.

[jeevey]

What I mean is that masculinity and femininity are complex constructs. Forum discussions tend to be fairly reductionist and settle into two parties who disagree but without covering the full spectrum of the issues at hand. It's just a format that lends itself to that sort of dialogue. Coming to a subject like gender construction without a shared background of theory would be tough. And as a complicated personal topic, it's really easy to be offensive and for people to get pissed and lose the train of what's important. It's easy to do that even sitting in a room with people you know and like, so I think it would be extra likely here. I'm not saying don't discuss it, I'm just saying a nuanced, informed discussion would be a trick to pull off.

[Pearl]

I see your point. Gender roles are difficult to discuss because most won't realize what is nurture or nature. Even more so, most won't see a problem with certain roles, such as men mowing the lawns or women doing the laundry. I have no problem with roles like that and don't see the point in having a brain hemorrhage over them. But if gender roles say men are to be the breadwinners and women stay at home and be submissive to their husbands, then I cry foul on that.

[Galeongirl]

Originally Posted by Pearl

From what I've heard, Europeans treat sexual harassment like it is no big deal. I had friends who studied abroad in Italy or France, and whenever a guy pinched their ass, they were mocked for complaining about it.

I think that you're overlooking a big culture gap here between Northern European countries and the Mediterranean. As sexual harassment is definitely a big deal here. Yet in Italy, Spain or France, men are generally more macho, flirty and have issues taking no for an answer. Something about bbeing doted on by their mothers or so. No but not to generalize too much here, but I do think that there's a difference per country.

[anitram]

^ Agreed.

I lived in Europe for about a decade and truth be told the only place I really experienced totally obnoxious catcalling, hooting, etc was Italy (and much moreso in Rome and south thereof than in the north). A bit of it in Spain as well, but frankly the rest of Europe I found to be quite similar to North America.

[Pearl]

Sorry about my post. I knew about the attitudes in France and Italy, but I wasn't so sure about the rest of Europe. Should've made that part clear.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Pearl

Sorry about my post. I knew about the attitudes in France and Italy, but I wasn't so sure about the rest of Europe. Should've made that part clear.

Europe is definitely a big, complex place. Like the US. This underscores the difficulty if making direct comparisons between, say, Iceland and Italy, let alone Iceland and the US.

I looked briefly today, but couldn't find the articles I had read earlier about more entrenched notions of gender essentialism in many European counties (France in particular). I actually may have posted them in the SSM thread, and I think some of the old threads on monogamy had some interesting discussion on the topic.

[Galeongirl]

For the record, if any guy tried to grab my ass I'd punch them in the face. And most of my female friends would probably too. So we're not quite all accepting, haha.

[deep]

I did not want to start a new thread so I thought I will drop this in here:

First picks in the NFL draft get millions of dollars to play football. But at one high school, that “number one draft” formula has been applied controversially to something else: Finding a date for prom. And not everyone is happy about it.

Corona del Mar High School in Newport Beach, Calif., lets male students select their prom date through a slotted system, much like a professional sport draft. The rules and results get posted on Twitter.

Some parents and school officials, however, do not want the female students to feel as if they are being judged or ranked.

Outrage as teens hold prom draft. Yep, like the NFL | HLNtv.com


One could just say they are getting prepared for the real world.

[corianderstem]

This is why we can't have nice things! need feminism.