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Old 07-31-2013, 12:52 PM   #21
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LOL - I just read the thread title, not realizing we where in a Fox News thread...I guess we got a bit off point.

My original point (in this thread in response to Dr. Aslan's book) was that it seems unlikely that Jesus could be considered a "zealot" when you read the texts about Jesus in the New Testament (like it or not - it is all we have along with a and historian (Josephus) comments). Anything else is simply conjecture. He could have just as easily claimed Jesus was really a Buddhist, or a pirate, or secretly invented baseball in the desert...
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:02 PM   #22
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LOL - I just read the thread title, not realizing we where in a Fox News thread...
Yeah, come on now. This debate is far more intelligent than anything you'd find on Fox.
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:24 PM   #23
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My original point (in this thread in response to Dr. Aslan's book) was that it seems unlikely that Jesus could be considered a "zealot" when you read the texts about Jesus in the New Testament (like it or not - it is all we have along with a and historian (Josephus) comments). Anything else is simply conjecture. He could have just as easily claimed Jesus was really a Buddhist, or a pirate, or secretly invented baseball in the desert...

Not a 'zealot' by our standards in 2013. But part of a movement at that time, in that place. One might benefit from leaning what context Dr. Aslan is using the term.

Much of the point of the book is that there is very little written history of Jesus during his lifetime. The Romans, who did keep records, mention many historical figures, but not Jesus. Jesus was not much of a 'stand out' until many years after his death. And then the writings we have, New Testament, are from people that are in a movement with an agenda.
I will cede the point, that the agenda could be just an accurate and true retelling of the facts.


This is pretty good

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He could have just as easily claimed Jesus was really a Buddhist, or a pirate, or secretly invented baseball in the desert...
Bsck on the FoxNews theme
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Old 07-31-2013, 06:16 PM   #24
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Not a 'zealot' by our standards in 2013. But part of a movement at that time, in that place. One might benefit from leaning what context Dr. Aslan is using the term.

...........

Bsck on the FoxNews theme
1) One (or is it two?) of Jesus' apostles is known as a Zealot.
Simon the Zealot, IIRC.
2) This Jesus/science conversation is infinitely more interesting than FOX News bullshit. So I'd hope it would find it's way to a new thread.
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Old 07-31-2013, 06:29 PM   #25
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Reza's book seems to be pretty well researched. I'd like to find a good book about the origins of Islam, about the times, politics and people. And the main guy, Mohammed.
Reza's book, "No God but God" might be good. There may be others, does anyone have a recommendation?
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Old 07-31-2013, 06:33 PM   #26
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Prove it...
Because it would have profound effects here on Earth.
What you're describing is a nouveau god of the gaps argument
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Old 07-31-2013, 06:39 PM   #27
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1) One (or is it two?) of Jesus' apostles is known as a Zealot.
Simon the Zealot, IIRC.
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Old 07-31-2013, 06:57 PM   #28
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Because it would have profound effects here on Earth.
What you're describing is a nouveau god of the gaps argument

I was just playing with you. I like the sound of nouveau god of the gaps though.
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Old 07-31-2013, 06:58 PM   #29
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2) This Jesus/science conversation is infinitely more interesting than FOX News bullshit.
Can I get an AMEN!
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Old 07-31-2013, 07:03 PM   #30
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I was just playing with you. I like the sound of nouveau god of the gaps though.
Almost like an 80s Christian Band
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Old 07-31-2013, 07:04 PM   #31
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Made a new, Fox free thread
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Old 07-31-2013, 07:36 PM   #32
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Almost like an 80s Christian Band
Nothing beats Stryper...

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Old 07-31-2013, 08:22 PM   #33
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[QUOTE=U2DMfan;7688037]1) One (or is it two?) of Jesus' apostles is known as a Zealot.
Simon the Zealot, IIRC.

That seems to be the way it most often translated. Each of the 12 Disciples brought their distinct personalities to the "team".

That does not mean that Jesus was ever considered a Zealot in his lifetime - or the immediate era after his death (Paul's letters) or the Gospels decades later - or by the Church Fathers (those writing in the second and third centuries).
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Old 08-01-2013, 01:50 AM   #34
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That does not mean that Jesus was ever considered a Zealot in his lifetime - or the immediate era after his death (Paul's letters) or the Gospels decades later - or by the Church Fathers (those writing in the second and third centuries).
I am of the mind that the book was likely biased anyway.

A truly objective historical view of Jesus is not going to come from a believer, Christian, Jew or Muslim, as much as they want to claim objectivity. But especially one that was a believer in Jesus and is now lapsed and onto another belief system. It's like a...potential double whammy of bias. Does this mean it HAS to be biased? No. But it likely is. And considering its fairly unique POV for Aslan, it lends even more likelihood. I'm no religious expert (though very interested in the subject), just using deductive reasoning.

If I wanted a historical account from a lapsed Christian, I would tend to listen more so to someone like John Dominic Crossan.
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Old 08-01-2013, 03:30 PM   #35
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I am of the mind that the book was likely biased anyway.

A truly objective historical view of Jesus is not going to come from a believer, Christian, Jew or Muslim, as much as they want to claim objectivity. But especially one that was a believer in Jesus and is now lapsed and onto another belief system. It's like a...potential double whammy of bias. Does this mean it HAS to be biased? No. But it likely is. And considering its fairly unique POV for Aslan, it lends even more likelihood. I'm no religious expert (though very interested in the subject), just using deductive reasoning.

If I wanted a historical account from a lapsed Christian, I would tend to listen more so to someone like John Dominic Crossan.


so you're assuming Aslan can't do his job?
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Old 08-01-2013, 08:21 PM   #36
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so you're assuming Aslan can't do his job?
Sure. And some will support his conclusion while others will debunk his conclusions. Then we move on.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:45 AM   #37
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so you're assuming Aslan can't do his job?
If he told you he was a believer in the Tooth Fairy, and was writing a book saying Santa Claus wasn't real, and this wasn't in the context of Islam and FOX News, would you really even need to ask that question?
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Old 08-02-2013, 09:14 AM   #38
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If he told you he was a believer in the Tooth Fairy, and was writing a book saying Santa Claus wasn't real, and this wasn't in the context of Islam and FOX News, would you really even need to ask that question?

So he's a Muslim first and a scholar second?

Shouldn't we at least accord him the respect he deserves based upon his academic and publishing history and weigh his arguments rather than summarily dismissing him because he's a Muslim?
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Old 08-02-2013, 10:23 AM   #39
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So he's a Muslim first and a scholar second?

Shouldn't we at least accord him the respect he deserves based upon his academic and publishing history and weigh his arguments rather than summarily dismissing him because he's a Muslim?
Perhaps the fact that he is an ex-Christian weighs more heavily in his bias (potentially) - than the fact he is a active Muslim.
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Old 08-02-2013, 02:26 PM   #40
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Thoughtful interaction between Aslan and a nun. Much more substantive conversation than that Fox thing. (Shocker.)

UPDATE Sr. Rose interviews Reza Aslan on controversial best seller “Zealot: the Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth”
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