You haven't been paying attention.
Whether it works or not
You haven't been paying attention.
Can you show me a quote?
i oppose torture for a variety of reasons that i've outlined over the years in here, and one of those reasons is the fact that torture doesn't work because it gives you bad information. what's invalid about that position?
--Irvine511
pg 2 of this thread
torture doesn't work. we know this.
--Irvine511
pg 3
I'm sure I could find more.This would be nice if torture were proven to provide reliable intelligence. It hasn't. In fact, if anything has been proven it's that torture provides extremely unreliable intelligence.
--Diemen
pg 8
The debate over the effectiveness of subjecting detainees to psychological and physical pressure is in some ways irresolvable, because it is impossible to know whether less coercive methods would have achieved the same result. But for defenders of waterboarding, the evidence is clear: Mohammed cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent, only when his spirit was broken in the month after his capture March 1, 2003, as the inspector general's report and other documents released this week indicate.
Over a few weeks, he was subjected to an escalating series of coercive methods, culminating in 7 1/2 days of sleep deprivation, while diapered and shackled, and 183 instances of waterboarding. After the month-long torment, he was never waterboarded again.
"What do you think changed KSM's mind?" one former senior intelligence official said this week after being asked about the effect of waterboarding. "Of course it began with that."
Mohammed, in statements to the International Committee of the Red Cross, said some of the information he provided was untrue.
"During the harshest period of my interrogation I gave a lot of false information in order to satisfy what I believed the interrogators wished to hear in order to make the ill-treatment stop. I later told interrogators that their methods were stupid and counterproductive. I'm sure that the false information I was forced to invent in order to make the ill-treatment stop wasted a lot of their time," he said.
Critics say waterboarding and other harsh methods are unacceptable regardless of their results, and those with detailed knowledge of the CIA's program say the existing assessments offer no scientific basis to draw conclusions about effectiveness.
"Democratic societies don't use torture under any circumstances. It is illegal and immoral," said Tom Parker, policy director for counterterrorism and human rights at Amnesty International. "This is a fool's argument in any event. There is no way to prove or disprove the counterfactual."
John L. Helgerson, the former CIA inspector general who investigated the agency's detention and interrogation program, said his work did not put him in "a position to reach definitive conclusions about the effectiveness of particular interrogation methods."
"Certain of the techniques seemed to have little effect, whereas waterboarding and sleep deprivation were the two most powerful techniques and elicited a lot of information," he said in an interview. "But we didn't have the time or resources to do a careful, systematic analysis of the use of particular techniques with particular individuals and independently confirm the quality of the information that came out."
I'm sure I could find more.
Many Mahdi will die, but they live to die
Ex-CIA Chiefs Decry Holder Interrogator Probe in Letter to Obama
Seven former directors of the Central Intelligence Agency on Friday urged President Obama to reverse Attorney General Eric Holder's decision to hold a criminal investigation of CIA interrogators who used enhanced techniques on detainees.
The directors, whose tenures span back as far as 35 years, wrote a letter to the president saying the cases have already been investigated by the CIA and career prosecutors, and to reconsider those decisions makes it difficult for agents to believe they can safely follow legal guidance.
"Attorney General Holder's decision to re-open the criminal investigation creates an atmosphere of continuous jeopardy for those whose cases the Department of Justice had previously declined to prosecute," they wrote.
"Those men and women who undertake difficult intelligence assignments in the aftermath of an attack such as September 11 must believe there is permanence in the legal rules that govern their actions," the seven added.
The letter was signed by former directors Michael Hayden, Porter Goss, George Tenet, John Deutch, R. James Woolsey, William Webster and James R. Schlesinger.
The directors also warned that if the investigations are opened up, they fear that the assistance given to the United States by foreign intelligence agencies may jeopardize future cooperation.
So Mr. President, what is "job one." Our national defense or the appeasement of the political Left?
Extreme pain and stress can actually impair a person's ability to tell the truth.
I honestly fail to see how they are mutually exclusive.
It "doesn't work" and "it kills our soul as a country" are two entirely different and mutually exclusive arguments
Because if it NEVER works there is simply no reason, excuse or justification for its use beyond sadistic pleasure. Today, tomorrow or 5 years ago.
However, if it works in specific cases when needed under exceptional circumstances then there truly is an argument. The importance of protecting human rights vs the duty to prevent the possible mass-murder of innocent civilians whom you've been entrusted to protect.
Because if it NEVER works there is simply no reason, excuse or justification for its use beyond sadistic pleasure. Today, tomorrow or 5 years ago. However, if it works in specific cases when needed under exceptional circumstances then there truly is an argument. The importance of protecting human rights vs the duty to prevent the possible mass-murder of innocent civilians whom you've been entrusted to protect.
Choosing either good or evil is not the same as being forced to choose between the lesser of two evils.
please show us the situation where we had to torture someone to prevent the mass-murder of innocent civilians.
thanks.
I just kind of assumed that "24" was a recreation of actual events. Are you trying to tell me it's not?
also, what stories like this Denver possible plot should tell us is that good intelligence is gotten through effective police work, not through torture.
Bet they were aided by provisions of the Patriot Act and other terror-fighting programs started under the Bush Administration (all of which were fought and labeled as "Constitution shredding" by those on the far-Left).
But, much like the worthiness of targeted harsh interrogation, that is only common sense speculation on my part.
The torture memos show how illegal wars turn even the nicest people bad | Simon Jenkins | Comment is free | The GuardianThe torture memos show how illegal wars turn even the nicest people badThe deceit, the slaughter, the atrocity, the abuse of human rights. Today, Hannah Arendt's banality of evil is everywhere