Military Coup in Turkey

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

Yeah, Egypt's coup didn't work. I thought that was pretty well accepted at this point.

What're you talking about? Civility has been restored in Egypt. The erasure of secularism was brought to a halt. The Muslim brotherhood was banned again in Egypt. The military seized control and everything is back to the way it was. You don't understand Egypt if you think that military coup has had a negative outcome.

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by Popmartijn

I'm not sure if it's a good example to refer to Egypt. Not sure if the people there have gained so much with the new regimes, that life is so much better there than during Mubarak's regime.

I'm not referring to Mubarak. I'm referring to the Muslim brotherhood and Mohamed Morsi -- which was the only military coup in Egypt during all of their civil unrest.

The example is a perfect example. In Egypt, the military has always had the final say. They are the "protectors of secularism" so to say. The "dictators" of Egypt such as Nasser and Sadat protected secularism, protected minorities, kept Islamists at bay, enforced peace, and otherwise we're just nationalists engaged in politics across the world. They were supported by the military.

The issue is that at times, especially right now, Islamism is a clear majority. That area of the world is notorious for bribery, rigging, and fixed elections. Democracy, there, is highly undemocratic. And even so, what it elects is not a free world. What it elects destroys democracy by oppression, intimidation, and reform. It brings back the same dictatorships installed by the militaries, in opposition.

Why do you think when the Muslim brotherhood was re-exiled from Egypt, Turkey gave its members safe haven? Because Erdogan and his party promote those values. Erdogan and the Turkish government won't recognize El Sisi in Egypt as its leader still to this point, and demand Morsi is released from prison.

Anyways. Turkey's military is the "protector of secularism" much like in Egypt. This coup is damn near the exact same thing as removing Morsi from power. Secularism is the law of the land in Turkey, and the military is tasked with defending secularism. Erdogan historically has been part of several political parities that have been outlawed on that note, only to resurface under a new name. He is known to have ties to questionable radical clerics. He is an Islamist in all things but official namesake, and the military taking action in Turkey is nearly the exact same thing as it was in Egypt when Morsi was deposed.

[Dfit00]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

Did you enjoy 2002?

I certainly did, too bad it failed though. I wish there were another one to get the fucking clown out of power, it's time already.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by Dfit00

I certainly did, too bad it failed though. I wish there were another one to get the fucking clown out of power, it's time already.

Didn't expect anything better from you, given your other posts on this board.

[U2girl]

Suspicions arise Erdogan had prepared the arrest lists in advance. 6 000 or so arrested, 200+ judges fired, talks of re-instating death penalty in Turkey again.

[LuckyNumber7]

It's humorous that nobody is talking about the "democracy" that is asking for the death penalty to be reinstated. So many people are happy this coup failed because "democracy" and yet now you have a tyrant who is calling for reinstatement of the death penalty because "democracy" asks for it. Is anyone listening to his words? Erdogan is calling for the death penalty to be reinstated as though he's honoring the will of the people. As though it was put through the courts or put through a referendum.

He wants to execute his opponents. That's not democracy. It's autocracy. Wake up, world, stop this tyrant.

[LuckyNumber7]

I'm referring to this. "They" want it to end quickly. By "they" he means "I want to execute anyone who stands in my way."

Democracy at its finest, everyone.



Human rights just went through the shitter in Turkey. Any hope at joining the EU is gone. Erdogan will buddy up with his criminal ISIS pals and harbor those fuckers once they're chased out of Iraq and Syria.

[Axver]

Originally Posted by U2girl

Suspicions arise Erdogan had prepared the arrest lists in advance. 6 000 or so arrested, 200+ judges fired, talks of re-instating death penalty in Turkey again.

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

It's humorous that nobody is talking about the "democracy" that is asking for the death penalty to be reinstated. So many people are happy this coup failed because "democracy" and yet now you have a tyrant who is calling for reinstatement of the death penalty because "democracy" asks for it. Is anyone listening to his words? Erdogan is calling for the death penalty to be reinstated as though he's honoring the will of the people. As though it was put through the courts or put through a referendum.

He wants to execute his opponents. That's not democracy. It's autocracy. Wake up, world, stop this tyrant.

This sure as shit is getting unpleasant.

Neither option here was even remotely desirable.

[anitram]

I never understood why Turkey should be in the EU in the first place.

[LuckyNumber7]

I think when that discussion started in the late 90s and early 2000s, Turkey was liberalizing and westernizing.

[namkcuR]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

I think when that discussion started in the late 90s and early 2000s, Turkey was liberalizing and westernizing.

That would've been the very end of Turkey's western-leaning era. From the time Ataturk founded the republic in the 1920s, it was always a secular, western-facing nation, in stark contrast to the eastern-facing theocracies surrounding it. Erdogan's party, AKP, came into power in 2002 and turned the nation's back on all that. He has done everything in his power to turn the republic into a fascist, authoritarian, Islamic state. He's a dictator in the same way Putin is. He quashes all dissent, throws journalists in jail for speaking against him, and has outright bribed people and families for their votes, giving them money and clothes and exemptions from military duty among other things. There's no way the U.S. government truly believes it's a democracy.

He's not even Prime Minister anymore! He's President now, and that's supposed to be a ceremonial position in these types of governments. The Prime Minister is supposed to be the head of state, but Erdogan is still running the show with an iron fist. It's the same thing Putin has done in Russia.

I'm thinking our own government doesn't care about any of this, that they only care about their base and their assets in Turkey, and about Turkey's southern and eastern borders - the gateway to the Islamic world.

[LuckyNumber7]

Right, sorry I was just referring to up until the AKP by "early 2000s," I just don't know how long Turkey has been trying to join the EU.

[iron yuppie]

Turkey is a modern economy that, though not without its problems, was better financially suited to the EU than someplace like Greece. I think the hesitance to let them in is indicative of Europe's fundamental Islamophobia, in that the EU was happy to use Turkey as a buffer to the Middle East, with all the attendant costs, but not gracious enough to give them the benefits EU membership would have brought.

I think it's important to remember that a lot of the political and social discord in Turkey is a result of constant border pressures in the east, especially since the Syrian civil war.

[digitize]

Does anyone more informed than I know much about Gülen? Erdogan claims he was behind the coup and the US won't extradite him. I'm obviously not inclined to believe anything Erdogan says, but should I completely buy Gülen's guiltlessness?


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference

[deep]

I would say yes

I have been reading fairly in depth articles on this for awhile

he may have been in league or sympathy, but he was not necessary for this to happen, the generals in Turkey led this,


Turkey's coup accusations cast spotlight on Fethullah Gulen, a reclusive cleric exiled in Pennsylvania - LA Times

[deep]

Originally Posted by anitram

I never understood why Turkey should be in the EU in the first place.

Turkey in the EU blows it apart
of course they can't come right out and say this, so they have this dance, the dance can not go on forever,

[Popmartijn]

Originally Posted by anitram

I never understood why Turkey should be in the EU in the first place.

I think that for Turkey it might be complete access to the EU inner market (plus free movement of people). Plus maybe some status/validation.
That said, the EU has always been wary for Turkey to become part of the EU. So for them Turkey should not be in the EU. It is an important power at the gate of the Middle East, literally the bridge between Europe and the Middle East. So they can't flat out refuse Turkey's advances either.

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by digitize

Does anyone more informed than I know much about Gülen? Erdogan claims he was behind the coup and the US won't extradite him. I'm obviously not inclined to believe anything Erdogan says, but should I completely buy Gülen's guiltlessness?


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference

Total scapegoat. He wants to paint this as an "extremist" move from followers of a "Muslim cleric" who were threatening Turkey's democracy. I know little about Gülen but the facts don't add up at all, and knowing Erdogen that comes as no surprise.

[namkcuR]

Here is an article about Gulen and his movement. It's doubtful he was behind the coup. He and Erdogan were allies for a long time, and then they had a massive falling out, and now they are enemies.

Turkey's coup: the Gülen Movement, explained - Vox

[Bluer White]

Originally Posted by deep

Turkey in the EU blows it apart
of course they can't come right out and say this, so they have this dance, the dance can not go on forever,

And Britain's walking out before the last dance.