A Trial in Philadelphia

[AliEnvy]

Are there studies that show that the 38 clinics that 'need' to pass new heathcare standards have put women's health at risk?

SB5 is the type of legislation that creates a vacuum of access that is exploited by the Gosnell's of the world.

George Carlin: Pro Life, Abortion, And The Sanctity Of Life - YouTube

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by AliEnvy

SB5 is the type of legislation that creates a vacuum of access that is exploited by the Gosnell's of the world.

Very succinctly put.

[Pearl]

Keep in mind that one of the defenders of the Texas anti-abortion bill was a woman who had no idea what a rape kit was and thought it had something to do with abortion. I'd rather side with Wendy David than that woman.

On a side note - now AliEnvy is back? Gosh, who's next? It's because of the rumors that the album is almost done?

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by AliEnvy

Are there studies that show that the 38 clinics that 'need' to pass new heathcare standards have put women's health at risk?

I don't know. Maybe we could ask this guy -- currently breaking laws and babies necks in Houston.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ted-Texas.html

SB5 is the type of legislation that creates a vacuum of access that is exploited by the Gosnell's of the world.

Sure, because little/no regulation had nothing to do with Gosnell's house of horrors, and the women who died there.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

I don't know. Maybe we could ask this guy:

Douglas Karpen: Second 'house of horrors' abortion clinic is investigated in Texas | Mail Online

I feel so sick that I read that.

But to say thay anyone who supports a woman's right to choose is in the same league as Gosnell or Karpen is wrong, and being very unfair. Many pro-choice supporters see abortion as a sad, tragic decision, and would like to see it go away altogether - just like pro-lifers do. Problem is, both sides have very different ideas on how to stop abortion, and that is why we're at each others' throats and nothing rational is being done to stop abortion.

Originally Posted by nathan1977

Sure, because little/no regulation had nothing to do with Gosnell's house of horrors, and the women who died there.

What happened at Gosnell's "facility" was the result of health services not investigating his place, not investigating why the women died there, not investigating anything. They let it slip under their nose. This was the fault of corrupt state health service, not pro-choice supporters.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Pearl

What happened at Gosnell's "facility" was the result of health services not investigating his place, not investigating why the women died there, not investigating anything. They let it slip under their nose. This was the fault of corrupt state health service, not pro-choice supporters.

Exactly. Which is why we need more regulation of these facilities, and support from pro-choice supporters so that women get the level of care that they need and deserve. What we don't need are people who get so frothed at the mouth when they hear the words "regulation" and "safe abortion" in the same sentence that they completely lose any sense of rationality.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by AliEnvy

Are there studies that show that the 38 clinics that 'need' to pass new heathcare standards have put women's health at risk?

Ding ding ding.

Some statistics that nathan1977 and his conservative friend omitted:

Last comprehensive abortion stats study by the CDC (Abortion Surveillance --- United States, 2007) was done in 2007. Facts:

91.5% of abortions were performed in the first trimester. 1.3% were performed after 21 weeks.

Of the 827,609 abortions performed in 2007, six women died from complications related to the procedure. That is a mortality rate of 0.7 women per 100,000 procedures.

Compared with:
12.7 per 100,000 c-sections
19.1 per 100,000 plastic surgeries
4 per 100,000 tubal ligations
10 to 60 per 100,000 hysterectomies (done for benign reasons)

The requirements of this bill are the legislative equivalent of constructive dismissal. No, they are not shutting down the clinics but the effects will be the same and anyone who is denying this is either wilfully blind or naive. Leaving some women hundreds of miles from the nearest clinic.

[INDY500]

Do you think Gosnell, Tiller in Kansas and these others are reporting their procedures? In fact the number of abortions performed annually is wildly different depending on which source you use. CDC and the Guttmacher Institute being most common.

I posted links earlier to some hidden camera stuff that shows how some of these clinics skirt the law on late-term abortion.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by Pearl

What happened at Gosnell's "facility" was the result of health services not investigating his place, not investigating why the women died there, not investigating anything. They let it slip under their nose. This was the fault of corrupt state health service, not pro-choice supporters.

And why is that? Political pressure. The same reason abortion clinics don't fall under the definition of medical facilities requiring the same routine inspections and certifications in all 50 states.

Often easier to "let it slip under their nose" than risk the wrath of the ardent pro-choice movement that defines today's Democratic Party or, if you're a Republican, be subjected to the "War on Women" charge.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by anitram

Ding ding ding.

Of the 827,609 abortions performed in 2007, six women died from complications related to the procedure. That is a mortality rate of 0.7 women per 100,000 procedures.

I wish the hospital I practice for was judged solely on mortality rates rather than also rates of complications, readmissions, patient satisfaction, adherence to protocols, nosocomial infections, etc. That would be nice.

And another thing least we forget; not to be divisive but the mortality rate is 99.9 for another party present at those 827,609 procedures.

Anyway, my main point is how out-of-touch and one-sided coverage of this issue by the national media is.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by INDY500

And another thing least we forget; not to be divisive but the mortality rate is 99.9 for another party present at those 827,609 procedures.

Yeah, not to be divisive.

There is not another party there.

[AliEnvy]

Originally Posted by Pearl

On a side note - now AliEnvy is back? Gosh, who's next? It's because of the rumors that the album is almost done?

Actually I tried unsuccessfully to drive a wedge into the 'sit down and shut up' vibe going on in the feminism thread a few weeks back.

Originally Posted by INDY500

I wish the hospital I practice for was judged solely on mortality rates rather than also rates of complications, readmissions, patient satisfaction, adherence to protocols, nosocomial infections, etc. That would be nice.

Right, so has such evidence been put forth that points to needed regulatory changes based on currently insufficient medical standards? If there is, which I highly doubt, is there a conversion period of time that allows current clinics to comply? Probably not.

I think most people agree that abortion should be legal, safe and rare. To me the rare part means minimizing unwanted pregnancy through comprehensive sex education and affordable and accessible birth control. To others it means abstinence and creating barriers to legal and safe procedures.

There seems to be common ground when it comes to views of late term abortion but the potential for discussion gets lost in politics and regulating and/or criminalizing moves into the murky areas of privacy and safety.

Originally Posted by INDY500

Anyway, my main point is how out-of-touch and one-sided coverage of this issue by the national media is.

Peggy Noonan on This Week: Wendy Davis stood up for infanticide & the taking of a child's life - YouTube

[Pearl]

Meanwhile, in Ohio...

With the passage of Ohio's new state budget, women in that state have lost access to low-cost family planning services, access to public hospitals during a health emergency and their right to privacy.
On Sunday night, Ohio Gov. John Kasich signed House Bill 59, the new $62 billion state budget that includes a $2.7 billion tax cut and increases the sales tax rate from 5.5 percent to 5.75 percent, WLWT.com reported.
The budget also included several controversial anti-abortion measures, including one that will force any woman seeking an abortion to undergo a trans-abdominal ultrasound.
Another measure of the budget puts Planned Parenthood last on the list of family-planning dollars, which essentially cuts off $1.4 million in federal funding, The Columbus Dispatch reported. Per WLWT.com, "Opponents of the new abortion restriction said that three clinics in Ohio would likely close now that the measure is implemented."
Rape crisis clinics are also in jeopardy, thanks to passage of the new budget. If these clinics are caught counseling sexual assault victims about abortion, they could lose their public funding, Reuters reported.
The bill does provide funding for "crisis pregnancy centers," which are often run by religious organizations and do not provide accurate health information to patients. These centers do not offer abortion referral services.
Any abortion providers that manage to remain open under these restrictions are compelled to tell women "of the probable anatomical and physiological characteristics" of a fetus during various stages of its development. They must give women seeking abortions information on adoptions and alternative family planning options.
And if a woman is able to obtain an abortion in Ohio and develops some sort of medical issue during the procedure, clinics will no longer be allowed to transfer these patients to public hospitals for additional care. In the midst of a crisis, these patients must find a private hospital to help them.
Despite protests at the Ohio Statehouse last week, the new anti-abortion measures were approved when the governor failed to veto them. Kasich did manage to veto 22 other line-item measures.
"These provisions in the Ohio state budget are part of an orchestrated effort to roll back women's rights and access to health care in Ohio. The budget is only the latest in a series of restrictive laws signed by John Kasich that have hurt the women in our state who need more access to health care, not less," Stephanie Kight, president of Planned Parenthood of Greater Ohio, said in a statement.
Ohio Right to Life applauded the new anti-abortion measures, which are some of the most restrictive in the country.
"It took great compassion and courage for our governor and pro-life legislature to stand up to the abortion industry that blatantly pressured them," Mike Gonidakis, president of Ohio Right to Life, said in a statement.
According to The Plain Dealer, Kasich quickly left his Statehouse office after signing the budget, not allowing reporters to ask questions. The new budget goes into effect on Monday.

Ohio Abortion Restrictions: Gov. John Kasich Signs New State Budget Containing Anti-Abortion Measures

This country has gone to hell.

When it comes to pregnancy and abortion, pro-lifers need to realize that there are two people involved - the mother and the fetus. Too often, pro-lifers think only of the fetus, and disregard the mother's needs and her life situation.

It is laws like these that give more power to the Gosnells and Karpens of America, and all the other back alley abortionists that threaten the woman's life.

And I cannot wrap my mind around the idea that a woman shouldn't even fathom abortion when she was raped. The fact that so many people - men and women - are unable to empathize with women is sickening and downright frightening. I currently live in NYC, but I would like to move to a smaller city so my future family would have a front lawn and backyard. With so many states trying to take away a woman's right to choose, and succeeding, that narrows my choices of where to live. I do not want to live in a state where I will not be able to terminate my pregnancy if, God forbid, I am raped or my life is in danger, or even be investigated if I have an actual, natural miscarriage. As a woman, I'm really scared for my future in this country.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Pearl

And I cannot wrap my mind around the idea that a woman shouldn't even fathom abortion when she was raped. The fact that so many people - men and women - are unable to empathize with women is sickening and downright frightening. I currently live in NYC, but I would like to move to a smaller city so my future family would have a front lawn and backyard. With so many states trying to take away a woman's right to choose, and succeeding, that narrows my choices of where to live. I do not want to live in a state where I will not be able to terminate my pregnancy if, God forbid, I am raped or my life is in danger, or even be investigated if I have an actual, natural miscarriage. As a woman, I'm really scared for my future in this country.

women always think it's about them. so self-centered!

it's as if women think they're more important than a potentially male zygote.

[Galeongirl]

Originally Posted by Pearl

And I cannot wrap my mind around the idea that a woman shouldn't even fathom abortion when she was raped. The fact that so many people - men and women - are unable to empathize with women is sickening and downright frightening. I currently live in NYC, but I would like to move to a smaller city so my future family would have a front lawn and backyard. With so many states trying to take away a woman's right to choose, and succeeding, that narrows my choices of where to live. I do not want to live in a state where I will not be able to terminate my pregnancy if, God forbid, I am raped or my life is in danger, or even be investigated if I have an actual, natural miscarriage. As a woman, I'm really scared for my future in this country.

That's one thing I never understood either. Why would you want to torture a woman, ruin the rest of her life after she's already been through the horrors of rape, by forcing her to raise the child of her rapist?? It's fucking sick and twisted!!!


IMO it's a woman's personal choice. Something SHE has to decide. It's not like terminating a pregnancy goes without personal issues, as it's not quite easy to decide. But it's up to the woman. What the heck would the government have to do with it? Or any religious group?


God I'm glad I live in a reasonably free country, I'd go insane if I'd have to live in the US.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

women always think it's about them. so self-centered!

it's as if women think they're more important than a potentially male zygote.

Yeah I know. I'm a woman, I'm emotional and therefore, cannot be rational for the life of me. And forget about it when it's that time of the month or I'm actually pregnant - then I really am a basket case! Not to mention that my brain is much smaller than a man's.

[anitram]

Who is going to be paying for these unnecessary procedures (the transvaginal ultrasounds)?

[AliEnvy]

Originally Posted by Galeongirl

IMO it's a woman's personal choice. Something SHE has to decide.

And really, this is the fundamental issue that most who fall on the pro-life side of the spectrum won't accept as legitimate.

Life is created and decided by God and all life is sacred. Except for all the extenuating circumstances where 'we' decide there are exceptions (and usually use God to justify them). So there are no absolutes.

There is only the denial to women of the autonomy to make a decision that is ultimately a value judgment that her life or standard of life is more important than that of her unborn child.

I find it most comparable to the killing of innocents in war which we call collateral damage (not murder) to deny their humanity. But really, there was a decision made about the relative value of those lives.

Many pro-choice people deny the same humanity to the unborn rather than acknowledge the real (and uncomfortable) value judgment that is being made.

[Galeongirl]

IF life is created by god, so is the woman. And in that line of thinking, shouldn't that god be the one who gave that woman a brain to think and make her own decisions? So in a way, if you let the woman decide, you still let 'god' decide?

[Pearl]

I believe abortion should be the business of the following:

The woman
The man involved, if he's available or deserves to have a say (a rapist cannot shouldn't have a say)
The woman's doctor
And if she believes, her God.

Many fail to realize that few women treat abortion like it's no big deal. Many pro-lifers seem to think all women who have had abortions are promiscuous and have had several abortions in their lives. Boy, are they wrong.