Excerpt from the new RS article, "U2: Hymns For the Future" about "Winter" vs Singles

[U2DMfan]

Hey we agree on something!!!

Except, Discotheque, which I think is a great song, not in the league of the others you mentioned, but better than Boots, much better....

I love Discotheque, hell, I'm even one of the people who dig the video.

I think all of those others, even Discotheque (in context) were more risky, than Beautiful Day or Vertigo or Boots. I do think Vertigo was a different sound for them but it was pretty much straight up catchy rocker. And it was stripped to the core, designed to be a (to quote Bono) "scorching 45".

So the over-arching point is, they may have always had the same ambition for success but haven't always gone after that ambition in the same way.

 

[mrpeebles]

um, anyone read the rest of the RS article? anything else in it?

 

[ozeeko]

I love Discotheque, hell, I'm even one of the people who dig the video.

I think all of those others, even Discotheque (in context) were more risky, than Beautiful Day or Vertigo or Boots. I do think Vertigo was a different sound for them but it was pretty much straight up catchy rocker. And it was stripped to the core, designed to be a (to quote Bono) "scorching 45".

So the over-arching point is, they may have always had the same ambition for success but haven't always gone after that ambition in the same way.

I think Discoteque and Beautiful Day are both equals in spirit. Say what you will about the songs themselves, but they both ushered in a new movement, so to speak. With Discoteque it was the disection of pop culture and the way that drugs or whatever make you feel on the surface VS. what's really going on underneath, while BD points to the greater things in life other than the little things. It's almost like BD is the logical conclusion of Discoteque, because it says that we should only embrace those things that truly matter, love and family and friends and whathaveyou, and not these other things like drugs and technology and pop trends that are there for the moment but don't ease the soul in any particular way.

With Vertigo, tho, i will say thats the first U2 single that really offended me, and i still can't take anything of value from it other than: "we had a sorta good riff and we have to make something out of it" - With Native Son, they had an okay song, but with Vertigo they blew any chances they had. This is my opinion, once again.

 

[BVS]

I beg you to find one optimistic pop song that U2 recorded during the 80's and 90's that tells us to "shout it out, walk out into the streets, stand up for our love" etc. etc.

You won't. But where you might get close is where you find yourself being optimistic because of the FEELING the music gives you, and not because of what BONO himself is preaching to you.

So?

What is wrong with optimism? Personally I'm sick of people thinking dark = artistic...

I want a real answer to this question, no one(including you) has ever been able to answer this.

 

[blue screen]

I love Discotheque, hell, I'm even one of the people who dig the video.

I think all of those others, even Discotheque (in context) were more risky, than Beautiful Day or Vertigo or Boots. I do think Vertigo was a different sound for them but it was pretty much straight up catchy rocker. And it was stripped to the core, designed to be a (to quote Bono) "scorching 45".

So the over-arching point is, they may have always had the same ambition for success but haven't always gone after that ambition in the same way.

I see what you mean, I miss that risk taking part a lot, but as I said before, maybe it does have something to do with age and the fact that in terms of sound they have done so much, that it is difficult at this point to come up with something new, at least new for them.

Maybe the tour will be bring something new, and even if it doesn't, they are still the best live band in the world, so I don't really care what the crab does. I saw a Zooropa show (heard Zooropa and Babyface live) and many Popmart shows so I'm really at a point where I just want to be with a stadium full of people and listen to the new songs live.

 

[ozeeko]

So?

What is wrong with optimism? Personally I'm sick of people thinking dark = artistic...

I want a real answer to this question, no one(including you) has ever been able to answer this.

I'm just asking this because of people's beliefs that U2 have always been writing songs in the vein of their recent singles, as if they've always been a singles act all along. I think that with some digging you will find that is not the case.

 

[blue screen]

So?

What is wrong with optimism? Personally I'm sick of people thinking dark = artistic...

I want a real answer to this question, no one(including you) has ever been able to answer this.

Nothing wrong with optimism in my mind...hell, we need more of it now than ever...and I guess I don't have a big enough ego to answer that question...you have that answer, but I guess the one thing that comes to mind (I don't know why) is some of the Beatles music...sorry

 

[ozeeko]

I think the problem with me personally is that I never expected Bono to become what he loathed in the past. He never understood why people used "One" as wedding songs, or as a song to sing about a certain cause for humanity. He thought is was, (in his own words) "hippy schtick". I think these days he has become what he once loathed. That's all i'm saying. If he's gone thru some changes and that's now what he's all about, then alright- great for him if he's happy, but i always appreicated Bono for dancing around those things.

 

[BVS]

I'm just asking this because of people's beliefs that U2 have always been writing songs in the vein of their recent singles, as if they've always been a singles act all along. I think that with some digging you will find that is not the case.

Sorry, but this isn't making any sense... Now you are equating optimism with single?

I think you are the one not doing enough digging...

 

[blue screen]

I think the problem with me personally is that I never expected Bono to become what he loathed in the past. He never understood why people used "One" as wedding songs, or as a song to sing about a certain cause for humanity. He thought is was, (in his own words) "hippy schtick". I think these days he has become what he once loathed. That's all i'm saying. If he's gone thru some changes and that's now what he's all about, then alright- great for him if he's happy, but i always appreicated Bono for dancing around those things.

Yeah, I also think that One was not really a hopeful song, it has some very dark lyrics to it, but people interpreted as song of unity..and that's fine, but don't you think in a way Bono used the fan's interpretation to the band's favor, on Popmart (the images on the screen for example) and ever since?

 

[ozeeko]

Sorry, but this isn't making any sense... Now you are equating optimism with single?

I think you are the one not doing enough digging...

I was referring to the rest of my post.

I don't have a problem with optimism at all.

ISHFWILF makes me optimistic when i hear it, but the song itself isn't about that! it's about searching, it's about being lost.

Desire makes me optimistic, but it isn't about that! It's about sin and decadence.

Pride makes me optimistic, but it isn't about that! It's about the assassination of a civil rights hero!

See where i'm going with this? The music was always the uplifting part. It was the counterbalance to what was going on with the lyrics.

I (in my opinion) think U2 don't sound as hot when they're writing lyrics that are designed to be optimistic. It doesn't come off as powerful or memorable.

The whole thing about singles was another argument. But if you ever read any books about U2 you would know that in the 80's and 90s they had a different view on singles.

In my opinion, the singles released in the 80's and 90's, and even most of ATYCLB were singles that held the integrity of the band, and they wouldn't release something just because it sounded poppy enough.

 

[blue screen]

Sorry, but this isn't making any sense... Now you are equating optimism with single?

I think you are the one not doing enough digging...

I sort of lost you...I haven't gone back to your other posts to know exactly what you're getting at...so sorry for my laziness

You don't agree that U2 is a singles band, as in worried or focused on a certain single rather than the album as a whole?

 

[blue screen]

I was referring to the rest of my post.

I don't have a problem with optimism at all.

ISHFWILF makes me optimistic when i hear it, but the song itself isn't about that! it's about searching, it's about being lost.

Desire makes me optimistic, but it isn't about that! It's about sin and decadence.

Pride makes me optimistic, but it isn't about that! It's about the assassination of a civil rights hero!

See where i'm going with this? The music was always the uplifting part. It was the counterbalance to what was going on with the lyrics.

I (in my opinion) think U2 don't sound as hot when they're writing lyrics that are designed to be optimistic. It doesn't come off as powerful or memorable.

The whole thing about singles was another argument. But if you ever read any books about U2 you would know that in the 80's and 90s they had a different view on singles.

In my opinion, the singles released in the 80's and 90's, and even most of ATYCLB were singles that held the integrity of the band, and they wouldn't release something just because it sounded poppy enough.

I agree, you could even make a case for the opposite too, Zooropa has hopeful lyrics, but is a bit dark in its music, don't you think? That's what's great about this band, they have done pretty much everything...while sounding good.

JT is a real downer in terms of lyrics, as well as AB, but the music along with those lyrics somehow works (I refer to them because they are the "official masterpieces", I guess).

 

[BVS]

I was referring to the rest of my post.

I don't have a problem with optimism at all.

ISHFWILF makes me optimistic when i hear it, but the song itself isn't about that! it's about searching, it's about being lost.

Desire makes me optimistic, but it isn't about that! It's about sin and decadence.

Pride makes me optimistic, but it isn't about that! It's about the assassination of a civil rights hero!

See where i'm going with this? The music was always the uplifting part. It was the counterbalance to what was going on with the lyrics.

I (in my opinion) think U2 don't sound as hot when they're writing lyrics that are designed to be optimistic. It doesn't come off as powerful or memorable.

The whole thing about singles was another argument. But if you ever read any books about U2 you would know that in the 80's and 90s they had a different view on singles.

In my opinion, the singles released in the 80's and 90's, and even most of ATYCLB were singles that held the integrity of the band, and they wouldn't release something just because it sounded poppy enough.

I get what you are saying, I just think you were originally muddling up different issues all into one...

I just think Bono is attempting a new look on life and lyric writing... take a look at the majority of music you listen to, optimism isn't easy to write about...

 

[ozeeko]

I get what you are saying, I just think you were originally muddling up different issues all into one...

I just think Bono is attempting a new look on life and lyric writing... take a look at the majority of music you listen to, optimism isn't easy to write about...

I agree optimism isn't easy to write about these days. I think U2 do nail the optimism subject once in a while, like....(while i might be castrated for this) i think Grace is a perfect song, i think it details the beauty of grace with both lyrics and music in such a way that i come out of it thinking "hey, isn't life great after all?"

I think if CT and Breathe were on HTDAAB they would be in the top 5 songs, i think they're decent songs. On NLOTH i find Bono losing himself in the majority of the songs, writing like his old self, telling stories, making great points without resorting to sloganeering. I know he and the boys have it in them to make a perfect album, if only they can make the MUSIC sell the optimism, instead of the lyrics. This is just my preference, but the reason i got into U2 was because lyrically they seemed to be coming from a different angle, an angle that was more personal, which in then the MUSIC would make it universal.

 

[BVS]

I can understand that... have a good night.

 

[ozeeko]

goodnight

 

[U2girl]

I think all of those others, even Discotheque (in context) were more risky, than Beautiful Day or Vertigo or Boots.

Eh, what ?

As far as singles go, remember this is the band that had a producer spend a month on WGRYWH. A single song off their biggest album (Streets) took about half the time of the entire recording process. On AB they had the 3 main producers (and probably Flood too) mix all the songs individually, only to then hand-pick what they liked.

They're basically - and always were - notorious for (over)thinking in the studio, and making many versions/mixes of songs.

 

[rihannsu]

I think the problem with me personally is that I never expected Bono to become what he loathed in the past. He never understood why people used "One" as wedding songs, or as a song to sing about a certain cause for humanity. He thought is was, (in his own words) "hippy schtick". I think these days he has become what he once loathed. That's all i'm saying. If he's gone thru some changes and that's now what he's all about, then alright- great for him if he's happy, but i always appreicated Bono for dancing around those things.

But his point when he talks about that is that people often don't listen to the lyrics. What people are responding to in picking One as a optimistic song is the music along with the sentiment express in the chorus. The "get to carry each other" vibe. What Bono loathes is songs that have not depth at all. His songs, even the ones you think might be "hippy schtick" all have a depth or even a dark side to them but you have to look for it. BD is about a person who has LOST everything (not a happy moment) but he focuses on the Beautiful Day in order to not get "stuck in a moment" (sorry, couldn't resist that). It's all about perspective as he says in "Conversations". The cure for depression is a change in perspective. BD shows that in action.

Dana

 

[Slapnutz]

Bono has a rather naive understanding of depression. I'm talking about the real thing here, not something as trivial as morning blues, work blues or post teenage break up blues. No amount of Hallmark sentiment is going to cure you. His comments in that book were a real head scratcher.

 

[Salome]

On NLOTH i find Bono losing himself in the majority of the songs, writing like his old self, telling stories, making great points without resorting to sloganeering.

god, how i hate this 'sloganeering' bullcrap
ZOO Station, Even better ..., The Fly, Acrobat to me are as guilty of it as Crazy tonight ...

 

[rihannsu]

Bono has a rather naive understanding of depression. I'm talking about the real thing here, not something as trivial as morning blues, work blues or post teenage break up blues. No amount of Hallmark sentiment is going to cure you for that. His comments in that book were a real head scratcher.

He never said change of perspective is easy but to think that all depression can only be treated with drugs is also wrong. I read an article somewhere that talked about manic depressives and bi-polar disorder that stated the reason we needed drugs to treat these things now was the lack of extended support and community that we have in the world today. There are people with these disorders who have very strong support networks and are able to function without drugs. But that situation is rare. Even though Bono seems to have a negative view of psychiatry and therapy he also stated that the psycologist that his school councelor sent him too did effectively get him out of his rut by talking about her own problems and shit. At the time he thought she was just a crap doctor but later felt that the point of her whole approach was to take him out of himself and give him perspective. Mental illness is unfortunately spiraling out of control and Ireland has a long history of a high percentage of it. From everything I've read I think it is quite possible that Bono suffers from depression at the least and quite possibly manic despression but he has and enormous support network around him. I have the impression that Bono has a lot more intimate experience of depression than you might think and that he has sucessfully navigated that abyss so far.

I lived with a guy who was manic depressive and was unable to take meds because the side effects fucked up his life more than the mental issues. Much of what I see in Bono's behaviour is very similar to what I saw with Gene. Interestingly they both seem to have an intense need to serve others. I think it is part of what can keep them balanced because that surrender to others keeps them from going off the cliff so to speak. Sadly, Gene lost his battle due to a growth in his brain that was dumping enormous amounts of adrenaline into his system. He was loosing his battle with controling his rage and took his own life to avoid following his mother, brother, and sister into a lifetime of being in and out of mental institutions.

Dana

 

[Slapnutz]

Sorry to hear about your friend, Dana.

I think Bono is incredibly insecure and has an almost child-like need to be loved (something which often arises from losing a mother at an early age) but I couldn't really say if he suffers from depression.

You're right about drugs not being the only treatment. It's much more complicated than that, which is also why I find comments like 'a change of perspective' or 'a change of scenery' very naive.

 

[Luke2]

Yeah it's so sad to hear NLOTH has been completely ruined, ruined forever...


By the fact that a journalist has written that...

Brian Eno has some "discarded' bits of U2 songs not yet deemed ready for release...

On a tape in some basement...

Which even U2 agree will probably be fine-tuned into another album in the next 12 months or so...

...and the current album, good as it might be, is probably crap and ruined forever be the omission of these gems that exist somewhere...

YE PEOPLE, YE PEOPLE...

...please get a grip on reality and enjoy No Line On The Horizon... you'll get the next album sooner than you think, so before that one arrives, please make the most of the current one which keeps, sonically, giving and giving and giving to the listener, their best since Achung Baby with NO DOUBT about that...

Get a grip... Winter is a nice song, much of it sounds like a tribute... can you imagine if that was released up front as a U2 song.... think about it, think.... think.... think.... think... brain cells churning I know, but as for "Winter"... LOL...

c'mon, be a serious music reviewer.....

NLOTH ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AS IT IS.....................

 

[Dalton]

Yeah it's so sad to hear NLOTH has been completely ruined, ruined forever...


By the fact that a journalist has written that...

Brian Eno has some "discarded' bits of U2 songs not yet deemed ready for release...

On a tape in some basement...

Which even U2 agree will probably be fine-tuned into another album in the next 12 months or so...

...and the current album, good as it might be, is probably crap and ruined forever be the omission of these gems that exist somewhere...

YE PEOPLE, YE PEOPLE...

...please get a grip on reality and enjoy No Line On The Horizon... you'll get the next album sooner than you think, so before that one arrives, please make the most of the current one which keeps, sonically, giving and giving and giving to the listener, their best since Achung Baby with NO DOUBT about that...

Get a grip... Winter is a nice song, much of it sounds like a tribute... can you imagine if that was released up front as a U2 song.... think about it, think.... think.... think.... think... brain cells churning I know, but as for "Winter"... LOL...

c'mon, be a serious music reviewer.....

NLOTH ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AS IT IS.....................

This post has raised a serious philosophical question in my mind: can you really ask other posters to 'be serious' while over using the CAPS LOCK, ellipses and exclamation points? Discuss.

 

[lazarus]

Or when using the term "rocks".

 

[roy]

This post has raised a serious philosophical question in my mind: can you really ask other posters to 'be serious' while over using the CAPS LOCK, ellipses and exclamation points? Discuss.

Road House

 

[U2DMfan]

Eh, what ?

As far as singles go, remember this is the band that had a producer spend a month on WGRYWH. A single song off their biggest album (Streets) took about half the time of the entire recording process. On AB they had the 3 main producers (and probably Flood too) mix all the songs individually, only to then hand-pick what they liked.

They're basically - and always were - notorious for (over)thinking in the studio, and making many versions/mixes of songs.

...and yet there I was, talking about the risks of those lead singles, and in your effort to always revise history, so that U2 has always been the exact same, you conveniently look over this huge piece of context.

Of course they've spent a lot of time on a lot of different songs but what I would like, is that for once, you not be disingenuous in your efforts to re-write things. They recorded The entirety of The Joshua Tree in about 6 months. They spent about 15 weeks on Zooropa. Achtung, properly, for all it's ebbs and flows, took about 15 months.

The delay for NLOTH was as fucking long as it took to record all of TJT and according to reports, they spent most of that time working on a couple of songs, probably singles. The delay for HTDAAB was nearly as long as it took to record the whole of Achtung. Their consensus greatest albums came about a hell of a lot easier, why do you think this is?

Are they getting worse at producing ideas? Of course not.

So is this the same thing across the board? And what is the difference between the two? Whatever the difference is, the fact that there is a difference is something that some people continue to ignore.

Without the need to hone Crazy Tonight, Stand Up Comedy, and the other songs mentioned (I can't recall specifically the others) into the streamlined risk-free perfect pop songs (whatever descriptives you want to use) then there would be no need for a delay.

I am not speaking to the quality of the songs or that one method is even preferable, the only point is that there is a difference. I am making the distinction that some of you continue to ignore, I gave a perfect example with the lead singles and you ignored it.

 

[lazarus]

^^^ Very well said.

And I still don't understand the people suggesting we don't know what goes on behind closed doors. Apparently the interviews with Lanois, Eno, and the band members talking about the process are just some kind of smokescreen to hide the truth.

 

[ultraviolet7]

I just think they had more confidence, really.

They felt like they could dictate what the 'hit' was and when the insecurity set in at the end of the 90's, they decided they needed to make a more concerted effort to craft the singles. Now that said, I don't think Boots has any more craft than Discotheque, they were designed to be about the same thing but anyone who thinks either of those songs is in the same league as The Fly or Numb or maybe even WOWY (in context) is fooling themselves. Actually with the video and the current music of the day, Discotheque was quite ballsy, regardless of the revisionist history on this forum sometimes.

Let's face it, we are talking about 4 men who are near 50, who come out of the late 70's punk era and sowed their roots in the 80's. Their mindset is of a different time, and while they have been progressive in many aspects of the music biz, they still hold on to the classic release models and promotions and enjoy the comfort of that huge burdensome label.

They like the feel of their old shoes and their tried and true methods and the way bands from those eras made hits was to hone in and craft them. U2 started in that era as an alternative to that thinking, and while they may have always been hugely ambitious, they weren't always alleviating risks for relevance. They had built-in relevance of being young and culturally setting marks, rather than trying to find their footing back in the game.

I've argued for years around here about risks, and all I ever wanted for them was to take some risks again, fail or not. I think NLOTH has some risks, which is why I embrace every negative review I see. There was nothing, at all, risky about their last album.

Interesting post.

I think the insecurity of the end of the 90s posed them a dilemma regarding what kind of band they wanted to be from then on: a cult band at the helm of the reinvention of rock & roll or the world's most popular band. They perhaps guessed that in the age of hip-hop it wasn't possible to blend both and took their choice.

I don't know if Boots has more or less craft than Discotheque, what I think is that there is a difference of concept. Discotheque WAS Pop and like Pop it was, as you very well say, ballsy. It was clear that the band was taking risks. On the other hand, Boots is not representative of NLOTH - a) because the concept of the album is rather blurry and b) you strip if from the fancy sounds and it could have perfectly well been HTDAAB. It is clear now that the band is playing safe.

I agree about Discotheque not being in the same league as Numb or The Fly - this coming from a fervent supporter of Pop. Pop wasn't U2's revolutionary apex.

Precisely because due to age they are men whose mindset is from a different time and hold on to the classic release models and because they like the feel of their old shoes and their tried and true methods, it is rather weird that they have taken to this trend of crafting singles around which the final album revolves and most of the time doesn't connect to. It is different from what they have always done. I'm definitely not saying that they didn't care about singles/charts/hits in the past, on the contrary they indeed did as any band does, but in the past singles were a consequence of an idea that was being put across by an album, now they are independent entities crafted in view of what may be a hit and planted in an album, the concept of which remains rather nebulous.

I'm not sure NLOTH has some risks, perhaps it does regarding newly gained audience, but then it is definitely not a groundbreaking or innovative album. In fact it recreates an already known U2. I also would like to see the band taking risks, because that is partly the reason why this band is so great. I agree about the last album not being risky at all from a musical point of view, but I think that together with ATYCLB it is to date the furthest U2 has gone from itself as a band. Maybe that, though not in the strict artistic sense, could be seen as a risk.