What about us atheists? Where do we stand?

[VintagePunk]

If there is no God absolutely NO ONE would give a rat's ass if every single one of us went extinct.

Bingo. And I'm fine with that.

 

[shart1780]

You are an organism with an inherent drive to survive and reproduce, feelings matter because they enable both these functions in organisms with self-awareness and to a degree choice.

Feelings and emotions are not an existential cause to be, their existence does not demand esoteric purpose but practical function, namely the social interactions that enabled homo sapiens to beat out the other homonids.

And what is it with the "him"? Is this supposed entity the bearer of a Y chromosome, does it have sex with other Gods and then the other Gods are the ones that bear it's offspring - it is a truly anthropomorphic concept.

Just because I have a drive to survive my survival matters? Why is that?

Well, as far as I know Adam was created in God's image and then created a female companion for him slightly differently. Can't say I know this for sure though. I'm not going to try and explain the physical makeup of God as it's completely impossible and I wouldn't be able to comprehend it. He is refered to as male though.

 

[A_Wanderer]

We don't matter in the scheme of things, even by the standards of species we haven't been around long at all, having a continuously progressive idea of evolution is destined to fail because human beings are not at the absolute pinnacle of life, even something that isn't alive (a virus) could wipe us out.

Your highlighting of how in the absence of God we are only left with the cold bitter truth of short existence and death and making it out as a horror just illustrates the nature of belief, fictions to avoid that singular truth. Until humans conciously and individually accept our place in the universe as it is we will never be able to make it as it should be, since paradise is stuck in a perpetual afterlife.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Just because I have a drive to survive my survival matters? Why is that?

Because in your cells you store the cumulative information of 3.85 billion years of evolution, information that has been changing and replicating since the first metabolising and replicating nucleotide came into existence (making one immensely complicated molecule with the entire surface area of a planet as a sandbox does improve the odds somewhat.

We live to breed, if an organism cannot adapt and gets outcompeted then it's information is lost, the history of life selects for organisms that make their existence and reproduction important.

 

[VintagePunk]

Now tell me, if there is nothing higher than us and we are just animals roaming this Earth, WHY does anything we feel matter. Someone please give me a short, concise answer because I haven't gorren one yet.

People have told you; they're just not giving you the answers you want to hear.

 

[trevster2k]

Now, if there is no God I believe we're essentially animals who have evolved to the point where we think we matter in the grand scheme of things somehow. When we died why would it truly matter if we led a good life? Who would miss us when our loved ones passed away as well? No one. We'd simply rot in the dirt with worms crawling through our eyeballs.

Umm, see you're not an atheist , so please don't tell us how we view the grand scheme of things. You are telling us how YOU think things are if there was no God. No one here is telling you that we are just animals. Besides the purpose of living a good life is not to get credit or rewards for it, it is make the world a better place for mankind.

Who misses people who lived in the 1600's, no one. Most people barely know their family tree past their great grandparents. Once a person's immediate social and family circle dies, usually there memory dies along with them unless they are a celebrity or made some significant contribution to the world. This doesn't happen from malice, it is just the way the world is. There are some exceptions where families keep excellent records but for the most part, this doesn't happen.

And here, gnaw on these quotes for a while

the world will be a better place if we all believe whatever we wish, but behave as if there is no deity to sort out humankind's problems

or

Perhaps it's fair to say that it doesn't matter so much what you believe as how you behave. If you happen to hold the finest theological beliefs there are, and if you understand all the very best and most detailed divine precepts and commandments, but in your daily life you are actually angry, shouting and inhumane, then that's the way you will be remembered. Believing is all very well, but behaving is what you are judged by and will be remembered by.

 

[shart1780]

I think if I belived what you do I'd feel as though I don't matter at all.

Do you honestly feel as though a scientific chart showing our evolution could show the importance of emotions like love, happiness, fear and anger? Sure, they put us at the top of the food chain, but other than that what's the point?

If the fact that we mattered was a universal truth then we'd somehow be missed when we were gone. According to you the Earth could explode and we wouldn't be missed one bit, so how do we truly matter?

 

[A_Wanderer]

Perhaps a better answer would be a question, why does it need to matter?

 

[shart1780]

None of you besides A_Wanderer are even trying to get to the root of why you believe what you do, you're just telling me a bunch of things that make absolutely no logical sense.

 

[shart1780]

Perhaps a better answer would be a question, why does it need to matter?

The whole argument here is whether or not it does matter. Obviously the people here want to believe that their lives and feelings do matter.

It doesn't need to matter though. I believe we happened to have been created by a God, thus our lives have meaning. I just think that's the way things are.

Do we NEED to matter? Nope, I don't think so, but everyone sure seems to want to.

 

[trevster2k]

I think if I belived what you do I'd feel as though I don't matter at all.

See, you don't believe what we think. We don't feel that way, even AWanderer's point is not that we are insignificant, it's just that we run around acting like we are the shit. And really, we have to just to the best with the time we have on this planet. We are just visiting. You think that because of this perspective, we should all run off a cliff and say screw it all. You don't understand and it sounds like you never will so stop trying to tell us how you think we feel. I don't tell you how you feel as a believer, do I? You know why,CAUSE I'M NOT A BELIEVER and have no idea how you feel.

I'm done.

ETA

and can you get to the root of why you believe what you believe?

 

[A_Wanderer]

Originally posted by shart1780
I think if I belived what you do I'd feel as though I don't matter at all.

Or maybe you would feel that you only have one existence and you may as well do as much with it as you can, materialistic existentialism need not be resignation to hopelessness - the human mind can face existence and death without the delusions of special importance, afterlife or fated purpose. We can shape our own fates and we are responsible over ourselves.

Do you honestly feel as though a scientific chart showing our evolution could show the importance of emotions like love, happiness, fear and anger? Sure, they put us at the top of the food chain, but other than that what's the point?

The point is the survival of the information in our genes, evolutionary psychology is a brilliant field of research, understanding how our emotions are wired and their basis in natural and sexual selection.

If the fact that we mattered was a universal truth then we'd somehow be missed when we were gone.

Provided that we mattered, and we are just one species out of hundreds of millions if not billions that have existed on the planet through time, we just happen to have been the first to evolve such singularly unique social skills and self-awareness.

According to you the Earth could explode and we wouldn't be missed one bit, so how do we truly matter?

We dont matter, of all the trillions of stars out there we are but one, you set up a false line of questioning, your asking "because its a fact we do matter then when you say that the end of the earth wouldn't matter much in the scheme of things you are creating a paradox"

 

[A_Wanderer]

None of you besides A_Wanderer are even trying to get to the root of why you believe what you do, you're just telling me a bunch of things that make absolutely no logical sense.

And the logical sense of an omnipotent dictator in the sky who wants to hold all of us in peity on the basis of an ancient blood sacrifice is where exactly?

 

[shart1780]

OK I got the answer I was looking for. We do not matter.

 

[shart1780]

And the logical sense of an omnipotent dictator in the sky who wants to hold all of us in peity on the basis of an ancient blood sacrifice is where exactly?

I never claimed that the idea of a God is logical in a way that any of us could understand. But my arguments all do lead to the bass fact that God cares about us, thus my process of thought as to why we matter makes sense.

It seems to me like people here are saying we matter because we feel like it, basically.

 

[A_Wanderer]

It's not our existence that matters, it is what we do with it.

It seems to me like people here are saying we matter because we feel like it, basically.

Thats really about right, humanity can't destroy the universe or shift galaxies - our abilities are more or less grounded on a single lump of rock around an unassuming star - so in the scheme of things we don't matter. It's just that we have a great ability to put ourselves above our weight and pretend that we can do things like destroy the planet, wipe life out or for that matter think that we are the center of a creators plan and scheme. Human ego should not be diminished in this, especially when anybody claims that in the scheme of the universe we matter.

For the record modern humans have existed for 100,000 years. The universe has existed for at least 13.7 billion years, our existence represents 1/137000 of time.

 

[shart1780]

We dont matter, of all the trillions of stars out there we are but one, you set up a false line of questioning, your asking "because its a fact we do matter then when you say that the end of the earth wouldn't matter much in the scheme of things you are creating a paradox" [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm trying to use the atheist's logic against them. I'm not saying we don't matter, I'm saying that an atheist has no logical reason to feel that they matter. The fact that I say they matter because I believe in a God that they reject shouldn't comfort them in any way, yet they are comforted by reminding themselves that they somehow matter.

 

[shart1780]

It's not our existence that matters, it is what we do with it.

And how, in the grand scheme of things, as you say, would anything we do matter?

 

[VintagePunk]

I think if I belived what you do I'd feel as though I don't matter at all.

Do you honestly feel as though a scientific chart showing our evolution could show the importance of emotions like love, happiness, fear and anger? Sure, they put us at the top of the food chain, but other than that what's the point?

If the fact that we mattered was a universal truth then we'd somehow be missed when we were gone. According to you the Earth could explode and we wouldn't be missed one bit, so how do we truly matter?

I'm not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse, or if you're genuinely struggling to understand. In case it's the latter, I'll give it another go.

I'm sorry that you would feel that you don't matter, but that's not the case for me, or most of my fellow athiests/agnostics, I suspect.

Why do I feel I matter? I matter to myself. The experiences I have during this life are worthwhile to me. As well, I matter to the people whose lives I touch. I matter to my family, my friends, and maybe even some acquaintences. I matter to these people, and they matter to me because of what our interactions provide to us on a human level - the joy, the pleasure, the learning experiences, and even the negative experiences or strife we experience together that ultimately help us to grow as people. On a wider level, people can matter for generations after their deaths when they leave something behind in the world - a piece of art, architecture, or even ideas and knowledge are examples of these things. However, if one doesn't leave behind anything that's valued by subsequent generations, I agree with Trevster, we pretty much cease to matter at that point. But by then we're gone, so what difference does it make? I'm far more concerned with mattering now.

 

[A_Wanderer]

And how, in the grand scheme of things, as you say, would anything we do matter?

I suppose it's a matter of scale, a single person can be remembered for centuries if they achieve greatness, a creature can be fossilised and become a sensation millions of years after it's death, we could travel to other planets and perhaps one day stars.

Perhaps by working to unravelling the mysteries of the universe in some far distant future the decendents of humanity could essentially become Gods.

I guess in the end what makes something matter is it's effect on human life, and that is many magnitudes smaller than our universe.

 

[shart1780]

By that train of thought the only true reason to preserve human life would be to avoid the hurt of those who were close to the person.

Can you tell me why it would matter if a bum on the street, with no friends or family died?

 

[trevster2k]

This thread has been hijacked into a ridiculous argument. We have given this point more than enough attention. It doesn't matter if he understands cause he will only accept answers which he agrees with. So I refuse to continue the discussion regarding his question.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I'm saying that an atheist has no logical reason to feel that they matter.

I happen to think that I matter a lot to me, pretty much moreso than anything else there is, I have sovereign over my own mind and body and that is something rather dear to me, could be possible that a world where my existence is the only one I get and its for a limited time only could mean that it is more valuable to me than that of a believer who thinks they get time in life followed by infinite in supposed paradise?

 

[VintagePunk]

This thread has been hijacked into a ridiculous argument. We have given this point more than enough attention. It doesn't matter if he understands cause he will only accept answers which he agrees with. So I refuse to continue the discussion regarding his question.

I agree. This has been a lot of work. I say that us athiests deserve the rest of the night off to indulge in athiest-type immoral activities. Where's a good drunken orgy when you need one?

 

[shart1780]

I suppose it's a matter of scale, a single person can be remembered for centuries if they achieve greatness, a creature can be fossilised and become a sensation millions of years after it's death, we could travel to other planets and perhaps one day stars.

Perhaps by working to unravelling the mysteries of the universe in some far distant future the decendents of humanity could essentially become Gods.

I guess in the end what makes something matter is it's effect on human life, and that is many magnitudes smaller than our universe.

Why is it important to be remembered by a bunch of other beings who also don't matter? It almost sounds as if you're trivializing the worth of lesser human beings and placing all of our importance on our "greatness".

I agree that if there is no higher calling it is a matter of scale. It's basically a matter of size, time and distance. But I still fail to see how such things matter in any sort of way. Why is bigger better than smaller? Why is longer better than shorter? why is something that's prevelant in the univerese necissarily better? It seems to me that bigger equals better in the human mind, but in reality I don't know why it should.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I don't know, maybe some faggotry - you know this God probably should come out of the closet, a guy (as has been highlighted numerous times) who not only inspires people to treat their sexuality as wrong but at the same time is supposedly the one imbuing them with that persuasion, and being omnicient he gets to watch, issues much.

Just to boil it down.

We don't matter to any objective power for better or worse, nobody will weep if all humanity is snuffed out but on the plus side nobody is going to bring about judgement day.

A person is entitled to rights and liberties to live as they see fit unless they infringe upon others rights or liberties in which case their may become forfeit.

An act of charity can be it's own reward.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Why is it important to be remembered by a bunch of other beings who also don't matter? It almost sounds as if you're trivializing the worth of lesser human beings and placing all of our importance on our "greatness".

A persons legacy (apart from progeny) is the closest we can get to immortality, and even then it probably wont last more than a few thousand years - tops.

 

[shart1780]

A persons legacy (apart from progeny) is the closest we can get to immortality, and even then it probably wont last more than a few thousand years - tops.

I just don't see the point in greatness like you do I guess.

 

[dazzlingamy]

I cannot believe I go away for a night and this thread has denegrated to this. LOL

I can't believe atheists have been boiled down to sacks of biological meat with no heart roaming the earth shagging everything in sight and killing people just cause why would it matter if they died cause we don't feel anything.

I think it is ABSOLUTELY offensive and arrogant to assume that you can only have real emotions and feel for other people if you have god in your life. I honestly cannot understand this reasoning (if you could call it that at all)

I live my life, because its my life. Just because I don't believe in God doesn't make my life any less worth living. I enjoy my relationships, have fun, LOVE with all my heart, cry when im sad etc etc. Its me. But i dont not believe for one freaking second that some oooogity booogity man made me this way. I am what i am from my social, physical and emotional upbringing. Just because you feel life wouldnt be worth living if you didn't have your precious deity, doesn't mean i feel that way as well.

The utter close mindedness arrogance and complete lack of understanding from some people in this thread is mind boggling.

And thanks LivLuv, I respect your opinions. We may be on oppisite ends of the spectrum, but what is important is there is some understaning and respect there, something that a few people in this thread have not shown at all.

 

[yolland]

shart--again, please knock it off. Several people now have clearly told you that they have answered your questions as best as they could and have nothing more to say to you. Let it go. You are not advancing the discussion.

Perhaps the thread needs a new direction. amy's original question was:

But the real reason I post this, in the hope to get some people who feel the same as me, is Where is our place in this current world arena?

Very few posts in here have attempted to answer that. Most of the posts are either personal testimonies in some form, or else interjections/responses concerning Christianity and/or belief in God.