Jive Turkey
ONE love, blood, life
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
- Messages
- 13,645
I've always been that trophy Black Friend
uh, the term is Token Black Friend, Sean. Jeeze
I've always been that trophy Black Friend
You make some good points, Sean, but there's a difference between racism and prejudice. I think much of what you wrote is better described as prejudice. I know it sounds a bit like I'm just arguing semantics and I guess I am, but racism is much more nefarious. It's not unrealistic for someone to claim they aren't racist
uh, the term is Token Black Friend, Sean. Jeeze
i can appreciate this distinction. racism seems more active, whereas prejudice is more passive.
one reason i bang on about this is that part of my coming out process was coming to grips with my own internalized homophobia. i sometimes find myself thinking homophobic things despite being a homo myself. it's something we all do. and the best thing is to recognize it, call it out, realize that we're all guilty to some degree of these things, it's how our brains work. so we deal with it.
Are we to absolve all of these people of racism--allow them to absolve themselves--simply because they don't "hate."
i can appreciate this distinction. racism seems more active, whereas prejudice is more passive.
one reason i bang on about this is that part of my coming out process was coming to grips with my own internalized homophobia. i sometimes find myself thinking homophobic things despite being a homo myself. it's something we all do. and the best thing is to recognize it, call it out, realize that we're all guilty to some degree of these things, it's how our brains work. so we deal with it.
I find it interesting that living in a diverse cultural environment doesn't in and of itself guarantee that racism will evaporate. I think any overcoming of racism has to be a conscious choice. It doesn't just happen by virtue of who you are surrounded by. At least that's my experience.
Growing up I had a few blatantly racist "friends" who were totally fine with me because I wasn't "like the rest of them." I was a "good one." I was actually told that. More than once.
he just has a high opinion of himself.uh, the term is Token Black Friend, Sean. Jeeze
but there's a difference between racism and prejudice. I think much of what you wrote is better described as prejudice. I know it sounds a bit like I'm just arguing semantics and I guess I am, but racism is much more nefarious. It's not unrealistic for someone to claim they aren't racist
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
Your shitty attitude makes it difficult to carry on a civil conversation.
It's no secret around here that you don't know how to carry on a conversation without getting all bitchy. I wasn't being sensitive, just pointing something out for you.
I don't believe there is a distinction.
When one says "Those damn [fill in racial/cultural group], they always. . . .", you are automatically claiming that your race is superior because they don't always do that.
Well then please spell out the distinction to me, because so far I haven't seen anyone convincingly do so.But there is a distinction. It's not an opinion
How is it a stretch? Isn't there a certain implied superiority in a predjudice, aren't you implying that you are beyond such generalizations when you do so?That's a bit of a stretch.
Isn't judgement based on resentful sentiment? Can you give me an example of prejudgement that doesn't have some resentfulness in it?Just because only one of the definitions you showed actually used the word hate, it doesn't mean that there isn't an ingrained, resentful sentiment present in the others. Especially when the others used the phrases "the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others" and "a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.".
I would like to think that our language is based moreso on centuries of consensus and that a dictionary would like to cover all aspects of a word rather than just "mix it up a bit".I mean, they could've used 'hate' in all three, but being a dictionary, they probably like to mix it up a bit
Well then please spell out the distinction to me, because so far I haven't seen anyone convincingly do so.
How is it a stretch? Isn't there a certain implied superiority in a predjudice, aren't you implying that you are beyond such generalizations when you do so?
When someone makes a generalization that a certain group is lazy, stupid, dirty, etc. they're basically implying that they are none of these things. One doesn't usually imply that a group is stupid knowing that they themselves are stupid.
Isn't judgement based on resentful sentiment? Can you give me an example of prejudgement that doesn't have some resentfulness in it?
I would like to think that our language is based moreso on centuries of consensus and that a dictionary would like to cover all aspects of a word rather than just "mix it up a bit".
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about using and believing in generalizations, not just being aware of them.Jive Turkey said:Those damn Russians are all alcoholics. I'm well aware that, being of Scottish and Irish decent, we have the same stereotype
The Spanish girls example is not prejudice it's a preference.Jive Turkey said:All asians are good at math. Spanish girls have nice asses. Black guys have big dicks
Then what do you think is behind prejudice; love and admiration?Jive Turkey said:Hate, deep seeded contempt, whatever you want to call it is different than simple prejudice. The fact that you want to file such a broad spectrum of behaviour under one word is absurd
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about using and believing in generalizations, not just being aware of them.
Fine, juicy asses, if you want to get picky. It's hardly worth making a point of when I gave other examples. Besides, it would've been a prejudice based off of a preferenceThe Spanish girls example is not prejudice it's a preference.
But you don't think the Asian and Black prejudice come with resentment? Of course they do.
Then what do you think is behind prejudice; love and admiration?
Look back at how you worded it. They are all drunks, I'm aware the same stereotype is out there about me. If you believed it then you would have to say they are all drunks and we are all drunks.Jive Turkey said:Who said I don't believe them to some extent?
If you're brilliant in math then the only reason you would fall for such a prejudice is that you somehow believe they have some natural advantage over you, therefore it would be built upon resentment.Jive Turkey said:No, I dont. It's quite a generalization to say that every person who believes asians are smart or black guys have big dicks aren't smart or don't have big dicks themselves.
They're both terrible, just one is worse than the other. Of course I see the difference, but both are built on resentment or hatred.Jive Turkey said:If you can't see the difference between "The fucking Scots always get drunk and fight" and "The fucking jews are subhuman" then there's no getting through to you
I believe that russians are heavy drinkers and I also believe that Irish/Scots are heavy drinkers.Look back at how you worded it. They are all drunks, I'm aware the same stereotype is out there about me. If you believed it then you would have to say they are all drunks and we are all drunks.
This is completely illogical. You don't have to have self esteem issues to believe in a stereotype.If you're brilliant in math then the only reason you would fall for such a prejudice is that you somehow believe they have some natural advantage over you, therefore it would be built upon resentment.
They're both terrible, just one is worse than the other. Of course I see the difference, but both are built on resentment or hatred.
And I know Russians and Scots that don't drink therefore dispelling this stereotype. So I have to wonder what it is about you that makes you believe every time you meet a Scot they're gonna be a drunk.Jive Turkey said:I believe that russians are heavy drinkers and I also believe that Irish/Scots are heavy drinkers.
Who said it always had to be based on self esteem issues? I think you're missing my point, my point is that if you truly believe in generalizations based solely on race then there is some underlying reason.Jive Turkey said:This is completely illogical. You don't have to have self esteem issues to believe in a stereotype.
And shrugging off prejudices and why someone would generalize or lump one entire race into a behavior or trait is turning a blind eye and allowing racism to exist unchecked.Jive Turkey said:I showed you prejudices that weren't based on resentment and hatred and you completely ignored them to make this statement. I'm not even saying prejudices can't be offensive. But painting everything with the racism brush cheapens the word for when it's used correctly
And I know Russians and Scots that don't drink therefore dispelling this stereotype. So I have to wonder what it is about you that makes you believe every time you meet a Scot they're gonna be a drunk.
And shrugging off prejudices and why someone would generalize or lump one entire race into a behavior or trait is turning a blind eye and allowing racism to exist unchecked.
The idea that sexism, racism, etc only exist in the vacuum of blatant intent helps perpetuate its existence.
I'm talking about those that allow themselves to believe and use prejudices. You say prejudices are not racist because not all judgements made on a race are founded on hatred. Right? Or am I misunderstanding you?Jive Turkey said:You knowing Russians and Scots that don't drink has nothing to do with anything. Nobody said prejudices are true. I really have no idea what you're arguing about anymore
i haven't read one goddamn headline about Lin, so yeah, i believe it. I dont live in NEW YORK CITY nor do i give two shits about the latest new york sports hysteria. I haven't watched ESPN since the playoffs, i dont watch late night tv, basically im what you New Yorkers might call "out of touch" here in the heartland, so sue me. Yes im aware of who he is because i do watch the nightly news (to get to know the enemy), but im afraid they haven't done any puns. What is there to pun about the guy? 30,000 times? Big fucking deal, another overpaid athlete who happens to be Chinese.
The n word isn't considered appropriate, so we don't need chink either.
He's not overpaid by NBA standards, but he was living on his brother's couch because New York had not yet reached the point in the season where they were required to pay his full contract. They still had a couple of weeks before they were locked in. They could have cut him at some point and he would have simply gotten the prorated amount based on how much time he was on the roster.Don't know how overpaid he is by NBA standards, he was living on his brother's couch. He's not making Le Bron money. Yes now he lives in a Trump building, but maybe Trump's giving him a break on the rent. I loathe Le Bron James and the kind of athlete and teammate he is, so a guy like Jeremy Lin is a great story in my eyes. Has nothing to do with New York, they were just lucky enough to get him. I heard they came close to cutting him too. He'd be a fantastic story anywhere, but to me it's even more impressive that he's doing it such in a high pressure place.
The guy had to put up with racist taunts even in college, and even from Ivy League people. Geez, can you imagine. Even "Ivy Leaguers" resort to that kind of thing. We don't need that in sports or anywhere else. The n word isn't considered appropriate, so we don't need chink either.
I want to give the guy the benefit of the doubt that he didn't do it intentionally, but the cynical side of me lets other thoughts creep in. It's sad that a guy's movie like story of perseverance and seizing an opportunity is surrounded by crap like this.
I don't know what you or others are so angry about, but whatever...If it's just going to be angry ranting and petty getting personal crap and contests of fill-in-the-blank then please lock it.