david
ONE love, blood, life
Win is such a creep.
Fifth Person Details Arcade Fire Frontman Win Butler’s Allegedly “Manipulative, Toxic” Behavior
Ok but how great were they at that last show??
I actually don't have an issue with people going to see them live, I think it's a personal choice, as long as you're not pretending like none of this is real.
If Pitchfork's goal was to paint Win as a huge asshole? Well, mission accomplished.
But they keep trying to make this an issue of consent and abuse of power just because he's a celebrity and a decade older than these women, which is a strange road to go down. A fan is not a subordinate.
This is a relationship between consenting adults going bad because one of the adults turned out to be a toxic asshole.
But they keep trying to make this an issue of consent and abuse of power just because he's a celebrity and a decade older than these women, which is a strange road to go down. A fan is not a subordinate.
What he saidIt’s not simplistic at all. He’s making a nuanced point. Power dynamics are troublesome particularly when there is subordination. Statutory rape laws in the states are a perfect example of this. It’s not considered statutory rape for a 19 year old to be in a sexual relationship with a 16 year old in most states. That would be absurd - a 16 year old is not all that different from a 19 year old. However, if that 19 year old was the 16 year old’s teacher or counselor or Boy Scout leader or Sunday school teacher or whatever, that introduces a power dynamic. The 16 year old might not have a choice about being in any of these positions. The same applies for a worker and their boss. But a fan of a band has a choice.
Hmm.. the 16 year old fan who idolizes their favourite lead singer has more choices than the 16 year old in scouts or school?
To me this is absolutely about power dynamics and some warped form of subordination, of course it is. We're not reading about Win's guitar tech or the lighting guy here lol.
If the fan was 16 years old, you’re starting to introduce a question of whether or not the fan was capable of making said decision for themselves. That is the whole point of statutory rape laws.
But none of these fans were 16 years old, so that’s a bit of a straw man. But I’ll entertain anyways. Yes, a 16 year old who idolizes a musician still has more choices than a 16 year old in scouts or in school. And I’m not making that point to defend Butler. I’m making that point to establish very clearly that those positions of authority (teacher, scout leader) are in fact not choices. Regardless of your age, you don’t always have a say of who the teacher is, who the scout leader is, or who your boss is. As a child, you have way, way less of a say on these things. How is that at all the same thing as a musician?
Again, the point you’re making is regarding someone’s inability to make the correct decision for themselves due to their age. Butler wasn’t entrusted by someone’s parents to take care of them. These were adults (albeit young ones). If you wish to say that 18-21 year olds are still under some sense of incapacity, I’d entertain that idea, but that starts to open up the ideological “where do you draw the line?” We chose 18 for a reason.
You're quite right, none of the fans were 16, and I wasn't the one who introduced age into the mix (you did?) At really no point did I make any sort of point around inability to make the right choice due to age. Just responding to the context you presented.
Regardless of whether they were 16, 24, 26... there is a still a power imbalance and a (somewhat different form) of subordination thing happening there between the star and fan. Just because you personally would not feel/fall victim to it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
What is the point of this? You’re… trying to blame me…? Because I brought up statutory rape laws and power dynamics in another post? I brought them up to demonstrate examples where true power dynamics exist. I reiterated that in my last post. I’m used said 16 year old age as an example of what-this-is-not. Yes, I brought it up, but you’ve misinterpreted it. Don’t blame me for that and say it’s context I presented.
And if you’ve read the rest of this thread, I specifically started by this is somewhere in between and being in partial agreement and partial disagreement with Headache’s original assertion.
Good grief. I wrote 2 paragraphs. The first spoke to your own example, in the context. If anyone muddied the waters here or created any sort of straw man, it wasn't me. Full stop.
This is a relationship between consenting adults going bad because one of the adults turned out to be a toxic asshole.
I’m half in agreement. This isn’t a case of power dynamics in some textbook sense.
This is very simplistic. There is absolutely a power imbalance.
It’s not simplistic at all. He’s making a nuanced point. Power dynamics are troublesome particularly when there is subordination. Statutory rape laws in the states are a perfect example of this. It’s not considered statutory rape for a 19 year old to be in a sexual relationship with a 16 year old in most states. That would be absurd - a 16 year old is not all that different from a 19 year old. However, if that 19 year old was the 16 year old’s teacher or counselor or Boy Scout leader or Sunday school teacher or whatever, that introduces a power dynamic. The 16 year old might not have a choice about being in any of these positions. The same applies for a worker and their boss. But a fan of a band has a choice.
Hmm.. the 16 year old fan who idolizes their favourite lead singer has more choices than the 16 year old in scouts or school?
You're quite right, none of the fans were 16, and I wasn't the one who introduced age into the mix (you did?)
You’re toxic and you always have been. You’ve genuinely always been a mega fucking asshole. Fuck off.
GOOD GRIEF. Anyone who reads this exchange can clearly see you introduced some bullshit about a 16 year old fan of the band. You’re toxic and you always have been. You’ve genuinely always been a mega fucking asshole. Fuck off.
Not attempting to rub salt in any way, but I honestly don't even recall ever being in vicious arguments with you Lucky - but I am a bit older and the memory isn't always great.. Hope its just a bad day. No harm intended here at all - apologies if I misunderstood your initial statements..
There's no doubt this forum has had plenty of toxicity over the years.
But I have one thing going for me: at least I never slapped my way through a crowd of women and children to be closer to U2.
Bono said "Songs of Ascent" will be released any day now, and as soon as it is, we know they'll be back on the road.
You wanna talk about power dynamics? I can’t think of a place I’ve experienced with grosser power dynamics than this web forum. There’s a clique. You’re in it.
Oh oh, or that time I, the kid, tried to reach out to you to smooth things out via PM and you effectively told me to fuck off and never PM you because you don’t care about me.
Don't you think you should take your own advice? I don't think you've ever let anyone else say something without a response.
You're not proving me wrong, you're continuing to prove me 100% right. You have to have the last word, even if it`s to repeat what you said. It`s as unnecessary as my sarcasm (hence the sarcasm). I`m not angry with you and I just as dispassionately don`t care about who or what you deem to be worthy of your respect.
Now, if you`ll kindly refrain from private messaging me about this again, thank you.
Hey Chris,
The ticket I have is a Collector GA for Sunday Jul 30.
I'm selling it now because I can no longer attend the show I wanted to trade it for.
Let me know if interested. Cost was $99.35 Euros which was billed to me as $142 CAD.
Cheers
I remember one time calling you out for some thinly veiled bromoerotic homophobic shit. You know what happened? The parade of defenders came in and gaslight the fuck out of me. You know what happened? Pages and pages of my feelings of disdain for the conversation being suppressed, driven by your and other posters’ sarcastic continuity. Do you know what it’s like to be *an 18 year old kid* being mercilessly mocked by a bunch of web forum junkies for challenging them about crossing a line on homophobic speech?
YI remember once I stated my distaste for fucking Lance Stephenson and being told I was “butthurt” and to “sit the fuck down” by GAF. And called him toxic just like I’m calling you toxic right now. And what happened then? You all paraded in and spent pages saying how much you liked GAF.
Even if you did remember this, it probably wouldn’t mean shit to you. Nor does it excuse any of it. What are you going to do? Tell me that was all a long time ago and I should get over it? Here’s the thing is… it’s pretty easy to get over something if there was any sense of redeeming interaction. But there’s not. Example: the shit you just posted. “Good grief.” Good grief what? Is it “this guy again” and you’re coming around for another opportunity? Sorry, not enough people left to make a bully circle.
Oh yeah. I've got lots and lots of personal examples.
Just for starters, oh, the things the Superthread gang would say to each other in public and private back when we had a secret forum to say them (yeah, that was a thing). We were so horrible to Screwtape. Jesus Christ. The internet has a buzzword for people like him now: "incel," but rather than try to help him while he was in a personal crisis, we mostly just bullied and ridiculed the guy. I still feel bad about that to this day and wish I could make up for it somehow.
There were a lot of different lolcows on this board like him over the years: Carek, redhill (deserved), Muldfeld (kind of deserved) or that short time where everyone would pick on Bonochick like she was a substitute teacher in a middle school classroom ("knock it off!"). There are so many I'm missing. For a while there, it seemed there was a new person each week that we were psychologically abusing.
Then there's Shuttlecock, which was/is 90% sexual innuendos and open/passive aggression toward The Other Place, which I was absolutely part of as well. LN7 caught a lot of shit there and I'm sure he didn't always feel welcome. There's so much toxicity that came out of those threads that was openly accepted as part of the fun and I wouldn't blame casual contributors from being turned off by it all. It was really childish and exclusionary.
Of course, I was part of it and had my fun at others' expense and I'm sure a lot of you hated me sometimes/all the time. I bantered back and forth with Impy a lot back in the day, at least until he called my wife, a well-regarded member of the site and a regular in those threads, a homely internet broad, at which point I just stopped interacting with him entirely because he wasn't worth the effort it took to make the necessary keystrokes. He didn't even get a slap on the wrist for that post, of course. The guy was a fucking asshole, but he was our asshole, so he got away with it.
Meanwhile, LMP resented me so much by the end that one of his last posts was a flameout detailing how suffocatingly elitist and intolerable I was as a person. Maybe I really was that bad. Regardless of my emotional response to the way he presented his feelings, I have to respect his perspective and really have tried to approach this board in a more understanding, measured way. Life has kicked the shit out of me so thoroughly over the past few years that a lot of the things we bickered about back in the day seem insignificant now, but even setting the significance of the subject matter aside, I like to think I've grown a lot in terms of empathy since then. I feel like garbage thinking back on all of this and am truly sorry for contributing to the toxicity on this board when I have, which includes times I've egged on LN7 because I was a real prick and liked to argue.
But I have one thing going for me: at least I never slapped my way through a crowd of women and children to be closer to U2.
I think it's safe to say, as many of us have been on this forum for 15-20 years, that we've all been made fun of at one time or another, and have made fun of fellow members as well. Some more often than others, some more harshly than others. We've all said things we either regret, would phrase differently, or not say at all.
To name one example that sticks out, I think of all the Jewish jokes that me and NSW would throw back and forth, believing it was ok because we were both from that upbringing. Of course, there were likely a lot of people (lurkers, newbies, etc.) who didn't know that we were Jewish ourselves, and might have been horrified at what they perceived as antisemitism running rampant and unchecked, even by moderators. Considering today's climate, it's even more horrifying to think about.
Or, as obnoxiously over the top as the Lance's Mom meme might be to where you wouldn't think anyone would take it seriously, it's not exactly a progressive take on sex workers (not that the actual Lance's Mom is indeed a sex worker (not that there's anything wrong with that!)).
For many of us, this place has been like an endless summer camp, where nothing is really serious and we just go back home to our normal lives, friends, etc. But we don't know everyone's particular situation or how much of their personality and attitudes are shaped by a casual forum where you can talk about and share practically anything, or how impressionable our younger members are/have been. As it was said already, many people signed up on here as teenagers, sharing in and being subjected to pretty risqué talk by grown adults. Anonymity carries its own responsibility, and if we didn't realize it back then, we should be able to acknowledge it now, as Gabe has above.
All of this is to say that I don't believe myself innocent of bad behavior, bullying, etc., I apologize for it, and I can only hope that over time, we've all improved our attitudes and sense of boundaries. It feels that way, for the most part, though this place turning into more of a graveyard probably helped. Veterans will still gang up on new members (or anyone) who truly get out of line, but I don't think it gets personal in the way it used to here in the ol' Lemonade Stand.
I hope everyone feels comfortable sharing any story that they want to get out of their system or have publicly acknowledged.