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Old 10-26-2001, 12:09 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Patti Jones:
So, If I believe in Jesus and kill 6000 ppl just because i was having a bad day i will get into heaven?
Sorry, i didnt get it. I mean. I believe in Allah and his messenger Muhammad, and I got to the mosque and pray 5 times a day, and fast during Ramadam, and I got up today and killed all my family 'cos I was just mad with them...will just my belief gonna get me into heaven? I dont think so. Actions are the most important thing. I believe there are a LOT of atheist ppl who will get into heaven easier than many of us, believers.

But Hinduism says that every religion is worthy as long as you respect it and follow it as it is ment to be (And i think I believe it, and that's why i dont call myself muslim even though my beliefs). Christianism says that they are the only way...another good diference..

Love and peace on earth!

Patti, the difference between a true Christian and a fanatical religious zealot is that it is a Christian's goal to "be" like Jesus for in doing so, it brings him/her closer to God. Jesus above all the goodness and grace, was compassionate. All the good Christians I know are compassionate to their own faults and strive to change them not merely out of faith or fear of eternal damnation, but because being without sin brings them closer to their Savior. It is a Christian's duty to spread the Gospel - not only because they see this deed as "good" in the eyes of God, but because they are compassionate about the fate of theirs and other people's souls. The good and dutiful Christian does not try to convert another person by using fear tactics, they try to achieve their goals by being compassionate and understanding that through a person's life on earth, they are subject to giving into sin... and salvation through Christ will help that person achieve grace, goodness, and compassion... just as Jesus. A good Christian follows the duties of Christ and should not pass judgment on another person - for in Christ's eyes everyone from the prostitute to the most devout deserves a seat in heaven should that person find salvation through Christ.

That being said, a good Christian knows that killing another human is wrong, regardless of the cause. It was not Jesus' intention to divide people on account of faith, and it certainly wasn't His intention for blood to be shed over religious faith. It was His intention to unify people on the basis that human beings are capable of sin therefore they must seek compassion, grace, and overall goodness through God. Surely, these thingsd cannot be achieved if someone kills in the name of religious cause, or if someone is having a bad day and decides to fly a plane into a building on the grounds that it is justified because it coincides with his beliefs.

As far as Christianity claiming that it is the only "way" well, every religious follower feels his "way" is the way to salvation. The Christians, the Jews, the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Muslims, etc. all feel their "way" is right and just and brings them closer to God.

I know there may be flaws with my statements about Christianity mainly because I don't follow that faith, but I'm going on what I've learned from other Christians and my Christian friends.

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Old 10-26-2001, 12:55 PM   #17
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
I do not know about Hinduism, but i know that your source couldn't be more wrong about Christianity. Christianity is not about doing good works in order to gain acceptance into the kingdom of God. A reading of the New Testament makes this plain. Good works will not get you into Heaven. Only beliefe in the saving grace of Christ Jesus will do that. Good works from a Christian come about as a result of the Holy Spirit living/working through the person.
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Old 10-26-2001, 01:55 PM   #18
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Let me add another thought on the whole "good works" debate.

Obviously they are good, but what becomes of the person who strives to do good works to enter Heaven but does not cultivate an inner spirit of humility and repentance for sin?

At best, such a person becomes frustrated and torn between the standards he sets for himself and his inevitable lapses into sin.

At worst, such a person can become cynical, jaded, self-righteous, judgmental of others, a person who seeks recognition for his acts and becomes angry when it doesn't come. Outwardly he can seem like a hero, but inside his heart is hardened and cold.

At the very worst, such a person can become an authoritarian figure, someone who oppresses others who fail to live up to impossible standards. Anyone who has played Ultima V (the greatest computer game ever, BTW) knows what I'm talking about.

Basically, you won't get into Heaven by piling up credentials--even if it were possible, your resume would never be good enough, and it would be marred by all your failures. We're all the worst of sinners.

Repent of your sinfulness, follow Christ, and trust that He will lead you "home". Walk on.
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Old 10-26-2001, 02:06 PM   #19
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I think this post completely explains what I've said all along. I don't know if I can speak for Hinduism, as I do not know enough about it, but regarding Christianity, you cannot just generalize it and lump it in one category.

Right now, the Christian responses I'm getting are a mix of the ideologies of Martin Luther (faith for salvation, but good works are a natural extension of faith) and John Calvin ("We're all the worst of sinners") here. It's okay, I'm not condemning anyone for their honest beliefs here, but my point is is that it's a misnomer to believe that Christians all think alike.

As for the quote on Christianity from Oxtoby's "World Religions," I would say it's not far off. The official line, of course, is that it is faith that saves (at least in Protestantism, and, more complicatedly, in Catholicism). But we've all heard the evangelists. On one hand, we hear the necessity of faith, but then we hear how we much change our "sinful ways," whereupon the evangelist begins bashing liberalism. Henceforth, isn't that saying that "good works" are necessary? Of course, to cover their tracks, the evangelists usually assume all these "liberals" are atheists or other non-Christians, but that's an equally unbased generalization. So, even though the official line is that faith is the only thing that saves, there is still a larger emphasis on good works. And you may not like that, but that's how Christianity paradoxically presents itself.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 10-26-2001, 02:16 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
So, even though the official line is that faith is the only thing that saves, there is still a larger emphasis on good works. And you may not like that, but that's how Christianity paradoxically presents itself.
Melon
That's a good point, Melon, and it is very true. We always say it's about grace, but then we knock ourselves out striving to be perfect, which our flesh won't be until we are united with Jesus. That leads to a miserable life of trying-failing-trying-failing. It's like a roller coaster. I will spare you having to read my testimony, but the basic jist is that for years, I lived under the law of works, until I realized I would be more effective if I gave it up to God and let Him live through me.
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Old 10-26-2001, 02:24 PM   #21
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Read my newest "blood....boiling....angry..." post just to show you more of what I mean about this paradoxical emphasis on good works. I'm almost ashamed to be a Christian at times.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 10-26-2001, 02:29 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
I lived under the law of works, until I realized I would be more effective if I gave it up to God and let Him live through me.
Basically, stop trying so hard is what you're saying? I pretty much agree with that. I think those with faith and a good conscience will do fine, because, it's true. We aren't perfect, and never will be no matter how hard we try. Some equate imperfection with sinfulness, but I only see it as our intended design; that one, no matter how hard they try, cannot live without God.

BTW, to add to the Catholic complication, the Pope once proclaimed off-hand back around 1998 that it is faith alone that saves, but he never really said it officially, so that only complicates the mess. I'm more with Martin Luther on this now personally, but I've been that way for a while now. I'm still very much Catholic than Protestant, though, overall.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 10-26-2001, 04:44 PM   #23
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Old 10-26-2001, 05:55 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
Basically, stop trying so hard is what you're saying? I pretty much agree with that. I think those with faith and a good conscience will do fine, because, it's true. that one, no matter how hard they try, cannot live without God.

I'm more with Martin Luther on this now personally,
Yeep, I think that people set these standards for themselves and set them selves up for a fall when they inevitably fail. And when we try to do things on our own, we will ultimately fail - somewhere down the line. I think that probably many people have committed suicide because they failed in trying to live up to some "good works" standard that Jesus didn't set for them in teh first place. If we would have been able to be "good", he wouldn't have had to die on the cross. Now, that doesn't mean that you or I think that because someone's a Christian, he/she can do any sin they want. I think that you are right in that if a person has faith in Jesus, he will want to be in God's will. But thank The Lord we have His Holy Spirit to work through us! That's the power key!

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Old 10-26-2001, 07:56 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
I think that probably many people have committed suicide because they failed in trying to live up to some "good works" standard that Jesus didn't set for them in teh first place.
80s, I agree with you on a lot of points, but not this one. First of all, I think that "many" people is relative. Secondly, many anthropologists, and especially sociologists (most notably Emile Durkheim, the "father of modern sociology") have written series of very convincing articles and books concerning suicide. Much of the thinking debunks the idea that suicide is an inherently individual act. One way Durkheim opposed this is by studying people in different societies/countries/socio-economic backgrounds, and found that suicide rates were vastly different, thus indicating that social factors may be primary determinants in the committing of suicide. That's why I don't really agree that "many" people killed themselves because they couldn't measure up to some arbitrary "good works" system.

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Old 10-27-2001, 03:16 AM   #26
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Originally posted by Anthony:
Yours is the notion that Christianity contradicts the Hindu doctrine; I see no such contradiction.
Ant.

I have no such "notion". I refer to two respected volumes on world religions to inspire debate. I told you which books it came from, so I didn't present my biased opinions or state there are "contradictions."
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Old 10-27-2001, 09:28 AM   #27
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Christianity is not about doing good works in order to gain acceptance into the kingdom of God. A reading of the New Testament makes this plain. Good works will not get you into Heaven. Only beliefe in the saving grace of Christ Jesus will do that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Popmartijn
And will you go to Hell if you don't?
---------------------------------------------

Now, back to 8osU2isBest:

I know that this questions was really posted as a segue into that funny story (I like dit, by the way), and not really intended to receive an answer, and in the past, I wouldn't have answered this question, because I didn't want to appear judgmental. But now I feel that I need to respond, regardless of what opinions people will form of me because of this. The answer is not popular in tis day and time. Yes, according to the Bible, ultimate rejection of Jesus Christ will send you to hell. What do I mean by "ultimate rejection"? I mean that when it's all over and it's time to be judged, if you have had one or more opportunity to accept Christ, and you have understood the message of Christ and have said in your heart that you do not need Him or believe in His act of grace, then God will find no place for you in His kingdom. And folks, this isn't God's fault...it's ours. We've been told by his word what we need to do. And it's not as if he's saying "I don't want to let you in today, because I have something against you personally. Buh-bye!" Nope, he sadly says "I never knew you". You see, unforgiven sinners can't be let into Heaven because they still have the mark of sin on their lives. It hasn't been washed away by the blood of Jesus. Because of God's holiness, he can't even look upon sin. That is the reason that God "turned away" from Jesus when he was on the cross...because at that moment the sins of the world were cast upon Jesus (not that He sinned, but that He was paying the price, so he Had to take those sins to the grave with Him). People think God sends people to hell. It's actually more that we are destined to hell from our very first "knowing" sin, and in an act of grace, Christ died to give us the opportunity to escape that etrenity. Now what about babies, or children, or people who have never heard, or people who can't understand? I believe that babies and children get an automatic ticket to Heaven, because they are not aware of their sin - they don't know right from wrong. I think the same goes for the mentally retarded who can't understand the gospel of Christ and/or don't know right from wrong. As for people who have not the true gospel of Christ presented to them, or never the opportunity to accept Christ? I don't believe they will automatically go to hell. But I also don't believe they will get an automatic ticket to Heaven. The Bible says that these people have God's law of love written on their hearts. So, while they may not know the name "Jesus", God has somehow given to them a sort of "inner knowledge" of His love and mercy and His holy nature". I believe they are then judged on how they deal with what they do know.
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