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Old 12-11-2007, 09:02 AM   #346
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I guess I might as well counter with more Medved.

http://michaelmedved.townhall.com/co...tainted_legacy

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The current notion that America’s undeniable power and privilege rest upon shameful foundations poisons our public discourse, embitters the national mood, and paralyzes all efforts for constructive change. We worry over anti-Americanism abroad, but echo its primary charges here at home. While all objective indications identify the residents of the United States as among the most fortunate human beings on the planet, much of the public refuses to acknowledge our blessings because, according the widespread acceptance of politically correct America-bashing lies, we don't deserve them.
Seriously, how can some of you people possibly celebrate or enjoy Thanksgiving or the 4th of July while perpetually flagellating yourself with such a heavy load of liberal guilt?

Mock...insult...mock...insult...mock...insult.

Well here's the good news...your burden can be lifted. All it requires of you is you to try defend something -- anything -- about the country for a change.
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Old 12-11-2007, 09:13 AM   #347
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Originally posted by maycocksean



I made two points, both of which you neatly skipped with these townhall links.

1. I questioned the value of a kind of "tip of the hat" to God in our public life. Speaking as a Bible-believing Christian I know there is plenty of Scriptural evidence that God has no use for the kind of lip service you described.

2. I said that a time when our nation was (supposedly) was more "Christian" was concurrent with time when slavery existed and we stole the land of the Native Americans. Perhaps you'd like to suggest that slavery would have gone unchallenged today due to our more secular public climate?

Care to address these specific points?
I'd like to Maycocksean but I'm feeling a little pissy (see above) and need a break from all the negativity during this season. Your 1st point is interesting. Let me just say that I beleive the Founders understood the need for both private AND public religion. Public religion is not meant to be a watered-down substitute for private religion, but must exist to allow all Americans to speak in reverent tones and share common virtues without the sectarian dogma of individual churches.
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Old 12-11-2007, 09:52 AM   #348
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

Seriously, how can some of you people possibly celebrate or enjoy Thanksgiving or the 4th of July while perpetually flagellating yourself with such a heavy load of liberal guilt?

Mock...insult...mock...insult...mock...insult.

Well here's the good news...your burden can be lifted. All it requires of you is you to try defend something -- anything -- about the country for a change.
Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:05 AM   #349
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

Seriously, how can some of you people possibly celebrate or enjoy Thanksgiving or the 4th of July while perpetually flagellating yourself with such a heavy load of liberal guilt?

Mock...insult...mock...insult...mock...insult.


you know, it is possible for some of us to keep more than one thought and/or emotion in our brains at once, and to view complex things, like nations or history, as neither all good nor all bad, but rather a mixture of the good and the bad.





Quote:
Well here's the good news...your burden can be lifted. All it requires of you is you to try defend something -- anything -- about the country for a change.
i routinely defend the US against lazy Euro-centri anti-Americanism.

let's see you criticize something about the country (that won't be fixed by snorting another line of Jesus).
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:09 AM   #350
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

Public religion is not meant to be a watered-down substitute for private religion, but must exist to allow all Americans to speak in reverent tones and share common virtues without the sectarian dogma of individual churches.


wtf? speak in reverent tones? about what? why should yolland speak reverently about Jesus? why should the lady who does the Buddhist meditation session i occasionally attend speak reverently about Jesus? why should any atheist speak reverently about the fabrication of god?

this is one of the challenges of being an American. you have to actually seek to make connections and forge common virtues. they are not handed to you by the state like they are in more homogeneous, blood-and-soil countries. we are the most diverse country on earth, and that's precisely *why* American patriotism -- flag waving, singing the national anthem -- is so much more overt than it is in, say, Germany. it takes work for a Texan to find a connection to a New Yorker, and assuming that all heart Jesus is not a good way to go about this.

so here's the challenge to you: find something to feel good about America that has nothing to do with your religious values (because, remember, as we've learned over and over again, the "founding fathers" weren't your kinds of Christians, most didnt believe in a God that intervened, not even in Colorado church shootings, and most didn't much care about the crucifixion) and rests totally upon finding common ground with people who are very different from you.
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Old 12-11-2007, 10:10 AM   #351
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I carry no guilt. Doesn't mean I don't feel shame for our dark periods as well as pride in our bright and shining periods (even though I bear no responsibility for either). I've never seen America in a singular light. We ask the world to admire us for our standard. I just want to see that we keep to that standard and don't make excuses when we fall from it. I don't want the symbol of America. I want the reality of America.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:09 PM   #352
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Editor And Publisher

GALLUP: Romney Speech Flopped? Large Numbers Still Say They Won't Vote for a Mormon

By E&P Staff

Published: December 11, 2007 11:25 AM ET

NEW YORK A new Gallup Poll finds that better than one in six Americans, including similar numbers of Republicans and Democrats, indicate they would not support their party's nominee for president if that person were a Mormon.

The poll was conducted from Dec. 6 to 9, immediately following the major speech by Republican presidential candidate Gov. Mitt Romney, in which he addrssed voter concern about his Mormon religion. The percentage of Republicans who now rule out voting for a Morman, 18%, is just one point lower than it was in March.

This stand against voting for a candidate based on one such factor is unusually high. Gallup observes: "Four percent of Americans (including 3% of Republicans) say they would not vote for a Catholic, 5% would not vote for a black, 12% would not vote for a woman, and 12% would not vote for a Hispanic."

Earlier this year, however, Gallup found 28% of Americans saying they would not vote for someone who is on his third marriage.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:58 PM   #353
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Seriously, how can some of you people possibly celebrate or enjoy Thanksgiving or the 4th of July while perpetually flagellating yourself with such a heavy load of liberal guilt?

Mock...insult...mock...insult...mock...insult.

Well here's the good news...your burden can be lifted. All it requires of you is you to try defend something -- anything -- about the country for a change.
Here's what you don't get: I don't feel guilty about our nation's past, because I wasn't there. I didn't do it. I just don't celebrate or endorse the wrongdoings of the past. It's not all or nothing, though people on this board, including yourself, try to reduce the issues to black and white frequently. And that's where my little "Point going over your head" graphic would come in.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:59 PM   #354
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
(that won't be fixed by snorting another line of Jesus).
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Old 12-11-2007, 03:01 PM   #355
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Let me just say that I beleive the Founders understood the need for both private AND public religion. Public religion is not meant to be a watered-down substitute for private religion, but must exist to allow all Americans to speak in reverent tones and share common virtues without the sectarian dogma of individual churches.
But same-sex marriage is an exception to the "without the sectarian dogma of individual churches" rule?
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Old 12-11-2007, 03:11 PM   #356
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Seriously, how can some of you people possibly celebrate or enjoy Thanksgiving or the 4th of July while perpetually flagellating yourself with such a heavy load of liberal guilt?
I celebrate both holidays happily every single year, thank you. On the 4th of July I celebrate the good things this country has done during its run and keep my hope that the country continues to do good things. On Thanksgiving I always reflect on the good things in my life that I am thankful for and hope that others will be able to find happiness in their lives.

Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Well here's the good news...your burden can be lifted. All it requires of you is you to try defend something -- anything -- about the country for a change.
I do. Whenever I hear somebody bash the U.S., I'm one of the first to kill whatever stereotypes they throw out. When I hear of good things that people in this country have done, I'm among the first to praise them, and stories like that fill me with pride and make me glad to live here.

I fully agree, there's a way to bring up the problems of our past without making today's generations feel guilty for the sins of their ancestors. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't bring it up when necessary. We need to keep it in mind so we never fall into the same traps again. And there are still some areas the U.S. needs to improve in, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing them out. It's not bashing so much as it is us saying that we know the U.S. is way better than that. We want this country to be looked at with admiration and respect, and in order to do that, we have to address the problems that are keeping us from obtaining that.

Angela
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Old 12-11-2007, 04:56 PM   #357
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Seriously, how can some of you people possibly celebrate or enjoy Thanksgiving or the 4th of July while perpetually flagellating yourself with such a heavy load of liberal guilt?
I'm sorry if my post inadvertently distracted from Sean's very worthwhile questions. But honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about.
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Originally posted by yolland
"THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT TODAY’S AFRICAN-AMERICANS WOULD BE BETTER OFF IF THEIR ANCESTORS HAD REMAINED BEHIND IN AFRICA...No honest observer can deny or dismiss this nation’s long record of racism and injustice, but it’s also obvious that Americans of African descent enjoy vastly greater wealth and human rights of every variety than the citizens of any nation of the Mother Continent."
Let me try approaching it from another angle and minus the incredulous sarcasm. My mother lost her entire family to the Holocaust. But, while one can never safely second-guess history, it's likely that had WWII and all the transformations it brought about never intervened, then yes, she probably wouldn't have had the 'standard of living' she has today nor the educational opportunities. But can you not see how offensive it would be for me to try to frame that to her as a 'silver lining' or a 'compensation'? It isn't, and it never will be. This has nothing to do with a demand that anyone beat their heads against the wall and chant 'woe is me' every day, much less not appreciate and put to good use what we have in the here and now. It's just the principle that you don't seek to frame mass tragedies as blessings in disguise. There are worthy lines of argument to be drawn upon against reparations (since that was the topic at hand), but this isn't one of them.
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:00 PM   #358
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:05 PM   #359
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^ bring it on.
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:57 PM   #360
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He looks like a wax statue there
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