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Old 07-21-2002, 01:10 PM   #1
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Are we supporting slavery,...

I think we do,.....


www.freetheslaves.net

www.antislavery.org

It is not easy to find out wich produkts are coming out of forced labour. Or is this the price for cheap clothes we wear ?
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Old 07-21-2002, 02:49 PM   #2
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Its a fact of corporate life
You make your stuff where its cheapest.
It's wrong and its sad...but its true.

Corporations make me sick.
If they begin making a lot of profit they'll move to be even more competitive laying off hundreds for no other reason than they were being TOO PRODUCTIVE!

Nike makes shoes in indonesia, employing 14 year olds for peanuts

United Airlines uses prison labour to reserve flight bookings. Thats right, when you call to reserve a flight you could be talking to an inmate...I shit you not

Eddie Bauer and a couple others also use prison labour while hundreds go without work.

Welcome to the west my friends...this is the price we paid when we brought in capitalism.
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Old 07-21-2002, 04:27 PM   #3
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Most businesses in the USA do not use labor from other countries. Those that do provide jobs that did not exist before. While it looks like nothing to us as far as wages, one has to realize that 1 dollar will buy you a haircut in India that would have cost you 10 dollars in the USA. As more people in these devoloping countries get jobs, the availablility of labor will shrink causing wages to increase. If the owner of a business decides to go to another country or cut workers that is his or her right to do so. Remember, its their business, not a government welfare program. They can take that business to what ever country they want to, and negotiate a price to hire labor. If the person does not want to work for those wages, they do not have to. Enforce a US standard of minimum wage and the business and other businesses would not go there period, leaving all these people unemployed. The wheels of Capitalism move slowly, but over time with a little regulation, it does improve nearly everyones standard of living.
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Old 07-21-2002, 04:39 PM   #4
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hey thats all fine if your into globilization and the like
Imperialism has been out of the vocabulary for years now but its still there.
The american empire is built by making other countires economically dependant on them.

It is not right to produce products in poor countires just because it will cost you less even if the people want it. Your teaching them that it is alright that they get less than american employees, that this early modern style of factory work is normal in todays society, that it is fine to employ a 12 year old girl.
There are better alternatives.

And what about americas poor? are they less important? is it right that they should go jobless while thousands of positions are almost given away for free?
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Old 07-21-2002, 05:39 PM   #5
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yes, unfortunately, if we want to get rid of all the people forced into doing this labour shit for cheap, the prices of things that are already overpriced will probably double. they'd have to pay someone *at least* $5.15/hour to do the work some kid is doing for maybe $1.

i'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it'd be the price we'd have to pay for it.
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Old 07-21-2002, 06:59 PM   #6
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Originally posted by STING2
While it looks like nothing to us as far as wages, one has to realize that 1 dollar will buy you a haircut in India that would have cost you 10 dollars in the USA.
Right...and India is just rolling in prosperity? I have never bought this argument.

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Old 07-21-2002, 09:53 PM   #7
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India is not rolling in prosperity yet, but once it gets its population growth under control and given decades more of economic integration with the west, prosperity will occur. Again the wheels of Capitalism move slowly. It is a fact though that domestic goods and services in India are cheaper so that 1 dollar goes a lot farther. But I made one mistake, its actually 2 dollars for a haircut there instead of 1 dollar. Still a good example.

Poverty in the USA in primarily stems from families of 3 or more depending on one wage earner. If that person alone was support themselves making minimum wage, they would not be at or below the poverty line. But with two or more kids to support, they are well bellow the poverty line. It a difficult situation, but having a kid is going to cost money, a lot more than a minimum wage job can support. I don't have a quick solution for this problem, but even in todays bad economic times, the Unemployment rate is still one of the smallest in the world. Most economist consider 6% unemployment to be the natural rate of unemployment. Thats where were at now. At are economic peak in the Summer of 2000, the Unemployment rate was 3.9% the best ever in the countries history in Peace time.

As far as the businesses leaving and going to other countries, why should they have to stay? Should American consumers be forced to only buy American products? Should Americans be forced to only take vacations in the USA because it will benifit the economy and US workers. Should you be prevented from buying U2s next album because their Irish and not American? Is my sister wrong to have left the USA to work from a British company in Dublin Ireland? If I have my own business and I decide to go to Turkey or Mexico and take my business with me, what is wrong with that? Its my money and my business! Are you saying that there should be a law that if I start my own business, I'm not allowed to take it with me if I move to another country? Or that I can't open a section with in another country? Is it wrong for me to take a business from New York and move it to Mississippi where there is a larger number of people willing to work for US minimum wage?

The US government does not attempt to make other countries economically dependent on them. US businesses free of the government see a commercial opportunity and they take it. Just like business in dozens of other countries around the world. Remember also that the dollar buys far more in these countries that are economically poor.

All the horror stories of NAFTA from 1993 never came true. Instead, Mexican per capita GDP rapidly increased and more jobs were created than were lost on both sides of the border. 7 years later after the NAFTA agreement, US unemployment level reached its lowest ever of 3.9%. The Mexican stardard of living has greatly improved with the larger number of businesses based in Mexico. Tarrifs came down and exports increased. Exports create jobs!
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Old 07-21-2002, 11:34 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Basstrap
that this early modern style of factory work is normal in todays society

So, who is going to make your shoes? Not every job in society is going to be grand....

Quote:
And what about americas poor? are they less important? is it right that they should go jobless while thousands of positions are almost given away for free?
Should we give the american poor the jobs that you said isn't normal in today's society.

Your logic is faulty.

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Old 07-22-2002, 02:53 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Most businesses in the USA do not use labor from other countries. Those that do provide jobs that did not exist before. While it looks like nothing to us as far as wages, one has to realize that 1 dollar will buy you a haircut in India that would have cost you 10 dollars in the USA.


I am not talking about low wages, i am talking about force labour.
That means. parents selling their children to local company`s ( who take orders from westrn country`s )

Quote:
As more people in these devoloping countries get jobs, the availablility of labor will shrink causing wages to increase. If the owner of a business decides to go to another country or cut workers that is his or her right to do so. Remember, its their business, not a government welfare program. They can take that business to what ever country they want to, and negotiate a price to hire labor
And if the underpayd people want to go to the rich country`s to get more wealth, they called economic refugees and we kick them back. Seems not realy fair to me.



Quote:
If the person does not want to work for those wages, they do not have to. Enforce a US standard of minimum wage and the business and other businesses would not go there period, leaving all these people unemployed. The wheels of Capitalism move slowly, but over time with a little regulation, it does improve nearly everyones standard of living.

That person has no choice,work for almost nothing or die.

It seems to me STING2, that you have no problems with company`s making money from forced and underpayd labour. Correct me if am wrong,...
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Old 07-22-2002, 08:11 AM   #10
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Originally posted by McGlinn


Should we give the american poor the jobs that you said isn't normal in today's society.

Your logic is faulty.

micK
no, I think not.
In america do you think the kinds of conditions in third world factories would be tolerated?
no
they would demand better working conditions and better pay
People in third world countries would jump at the chance to make a dollar a day even if it means working in shitty condiditons

the result is that we are actually slowing down their modernization and making it acceptable for them to live in 1800
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Old 07-22-2002, 10:32 PM   #11
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Again, what there being paid may be almost nothing to you, but in their economy it does buy a lot. The American dollar goes father there. Also remember that the companies would not be there in the first place if the labor was expensive. Would conditions improve if no companies went there? More people would be without jobs if they did not go down there.

I think what you fail to understand is that these companies they have decided to move there are giving these people jobs when before there was "NOTHING". You may deplore the pay, but the fact is, their overall standard of living is better with these jobs than without them.

As far as abuse of labor, that is another factor. Certainly any company found to be abusing people in the factory should be prosecuted and their operations shut down. But not because they are paid low wages.

In general though, international trade has helped to modernize and devolop many former and current third world countries.
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Old 07-22-2002, 11:08 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Basstrap


no, I think not.
In america do you think the kinds of conditions in third world factories would be tolerated?
no
they would demand better working conditions and better pay
People in third world countries would jump at the chance to make a dollar a day even if it means working in shitty condiditons

the result is that we are actually slowing down their modernization and making it acceptable for them to live in 1800

I agree!
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Old 07-23-2002, 02:48 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Again, what there being paid may be almost nothing to you, but in their economy it does buy a lot. The American dollar goes father there. Also remember that the companies would not be there in the first place if the labor was expensive. Would conditions improve if no companies went there? More people would be without jobs if they did not go down there.


First of all. i think those company`s don`t care about the workers.
They can produce cheap, without social care and laws that protect the nature and people. Second, if a country got to expesive they move to another one.( from india they moved to thailand and now they want to go to birma )

Quote:
I think what you fail to understand is that these companies they have decided to move there are giving these people jobs when before there was "NOTHING". You may deplore the pay, but the fact is, their overall standard of living is better with these jobs than without them.

Yeah, the companies giving them yobs. And than you say, i fail to understand. And the raise of overall standard ? I doubt that.

Quote:
As far as abuse of labor, that is another factor. Certainly any company found to be abusing people in the factory should be prosecuted and their operations shut down. But not because they are paid low wages.
Nothing to ad, but i chose not to buy products from companies that explore underpaid workers. ( and use childeren for the production )

Quote:
In general though, international trade has helped to modernize and devolop many former and current third world countries.
They only thing that will help is FREE international trade,.....
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Old 07-23-2002, 03:08 AM   #14
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Who is to say what is fair payment for a given amount of work? How can you say someone is being underpayed if you don't know what a dollar will buy in that given country? Explain to me how people there would be better off unemployed?

Mexico's economy has continued to improve as trade barriers with the USA have been brought down. South Korea, Tawain, Singapore and some other Asian countries now are developed countries because of capitalism and free trade. 50 years ago they were poor agricultural based countries.
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Old 07-23-2002, 03:19 AM   #15
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Sorry that i do not agree withe you, ... have a nice day.


Some peolpe will not have one,...

www.trafficked-women.org
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