For Cat Lovers Only VII - Post Pics, Ask Questions, Comments, Etc.

[Liesje]

Wow, that's really random! Weird how that works out. I watched some show on Animal Planet once about a labrador retriever being bred. I think they bred two yellow labs and ended up with a majority of black lab pups! I've also read that in some cat cloning experiments, the cloned cats have different patterns than the original, despite them being genetically the same cat (they were trying to prove to people that you shouldn't clone a dying cat to get a replica for your next pet, b/c it may not look the same!). Genetics is too confusing for me...

 

[U2Fanatic4ever]

Genetics is too confusing for me...

you and me both sistah!



It hurts my brain...

 

[Sicy]

I dont know how it works, but I see kittens that dont look a thing like their parents all the time.

 

[yolland]

I'm about 90% certain it's impossible for a truly 'pure white' and 'pure black' cross to result in a tortoiseshell; basically either the mother has to be tortie herself, or else either she or the father has to be a ginger cat. But, the ginger might be a diluted ginger and so appear to be a pale cream/buff color; or a van- or point-pattern tortie might appear at first glance to be 'pure white' because the brindled patches might be very pale and limited to the tips of the head or tail; or occasionally a tortie appears to be all-black because of the way the slugout between the two genes that create the brindling effect panned out.

I *think*.

 

[U2Fanatic4ever]

I'm about 90% certain it's impossible for a truly 'pure white' and 'pure black' cross to result in a tortoiseshell; basically either the mother has to be tortie herself, or else either she or the father has to be a ginger cat. But, the ginger might be a diluted ginger and so appear to be a pale cream/buff color; or a van- or point-pattern tortie might appear at first glance to be 'pure white' because the brindled patches might be very pale and limited to the tips of the head or tail; or occasionally a tortie appears to be all-black because of the way the slugout between the two genes that create the brindling effect panned out.

I *think*.

here's a link to some genetic info on cats :http://www.fanciers.com/cat-faqs/tricolors.shtml


it's very possible that one of the parents could of been buff/cream color.. Remember I am relying on my hubby's memory and his 'sense of color'. But he's positive that the other parent was all black. And also that the litter was 2 white (possibly cream) and 2 blacks and our cat.. gray and tan.

 

[Babydoll]

Sniffing inside my purse...

 

[U2Fanatic4ever]

awwwwwwwww babydoll.. what a cutie and a beauty!

 

[U2Kitten]

I think the reason Bono came out the way he did even though his Dad is so black is because his Mom is a calico

and she has white, orange and brownish gray stripes. Bono has the white and the orange, but not the dark striped patches. He was probably going to take after her, but since he was a guy he couldn't be a calico so he missed out on half the color so that made him so much more white.

Here he is again:

His sisters were one calico and one black and white, and he had brother all gray striped.

 

[Babydoll]

awwwwwwwww babydoll.. what a cutie and a beauty!

Thank you! You should check out his other pics in the past pages of the thread.

Maybe we could do it like Lemonade Stand pictures thread and have all the cats names with the owners names on the front page... and then when each new pic is added, it just updates on the front page.



What do you all think?

 

[U2Fanatic4ever]

Thank you! You should check out his other pics in the past pages of the thread.

Maybe we could do it like Lemonade Stand pictures thread and have all the cats names with the owners names on the front page... and then when each new pic is added, it just updates on the front page.



What do you all think?

I like that idea!! I am all for it. Count me in.

 

[Liesje]

Thank you! You should check out his other pics in the past pages of the thread.

Maybe we could do it like Lemonade Stand pictures thread and have all the cats names with the owners names on the front page... and then when each new pic is added, it just updates on the front page.



What do you all think?

oooo, I like it, like a "Interferencers and their Fur Kids" thread.

 

[U2Fanatic4ever]

oooo, I like it, like a "Interferencers and their Fur Kids" thread.

fur kids!! that is what I say about my cat. I always joke that she is my first child, my furry one.

 

[Sicy]

Nice idea, but I dont have time to go through 7 Cat lovers threads to collect the pics. If someone else wants to however, feel free

 

[yolland]

here's a link to some genetic info on cats :http://www.fanciers.com/cat-faqs/tricolors.shtml

it's very possible that one of the parents could of been buff/cream color.. Remember I am relying on my hubby's memory and his 'sense of color'. But he's positive that the other parent was all black. And also that the litter was 2 white (possibly cream) and 2 blacks and our cat.. gray and tan.

Actually, good thing for me I said "about 90% certain" before, because I just finished reading about what causes whiteness in cats, and it turns out that almost all white cats are white because they have either at least one dominant white 'masking' gene ('masking' meaning overrides other genes for color), or else two recessive genes for albinism (which makes other genes for color unable to function). So really, the rest of their coloring genes could potentially code for just about anything, and their offspring could definitely express those traits as long as they don't also wind up with a genetic combination causing whiteness. So actually, that's probably the explanation right there...a lot more likely than a ginger so diluted it looks white, or a tortoiseshell that looks black.

If any of the black kittens were female, then that would mean the mother had to be the white parent. In any case, the black parent was the source of Isabella's gray color, and the white parent was the source of the brown color.

 

[mandy1973]

Hey Sicy Thanks for the info on renal failure. That procedure you mentioned is what the vet wants to do. I'll be taking Columbus in some time in the next couple of weeks - after my next pay!!!


Hi to all the new kitties and kitty-lovers here

 

[U2Kitten]

Actually, good thing for me I said "about 90% certain" before, because I just finished reading about what causes whiteness in cats, and it turns out that almost all white cats are white because they have either at least one dominant white 'masking' gene ('masking' meaning overrides other genes for color), or else two recessive genes for albinism (which makes other genes for color unable to function). So really, the rest of their coloring genes could potentially code for just about anything, and their offspring could definitely express those traits as long as they don't also wind up with a genetic combination causing whiteness.

I also read that what causes Calicos is that when kittens are forming their coat patterns in utero, all the possible colors are present and one (or one including white) takes over and some enzyme shuts down the other color from manifesting itself. Calicos lack that enzyme, so any or all colors or patchwork patterns of all of them come out in the coat. Because the gene that lacks the enzyme is almost always on the X chromosome, and it needs to be doubled on both X chromosomes to come out, that's why calicos are always girls. In the rare cases where a male is calico, he has an extra X chromosome in addition to his XY.

 

[Babydoll]

What about adding pictures from just this thread?

 

[yolland]

I also read that what causes Calicos is that when kittens are forming their coat patterns in utero, all the possible colors are present and one (or one including white) takes over and some enzyme shuts down the other color from manifesting itself. Calicos lack that enzyme, so any or all colors or patchwork patterns of all of them come out in the coat. Because the gene that lacks the enzyme is almost always on the X chromosome, and it needs to be doubled on both X chromosomes to come out, that's why calicos are always girls. In the rare cases where a male is calico, he has an extra X chromosome in addition to his XY.

Right, I read about that in the info on whiteness I was looking at, too. In calicos (which are genetically just torties with white spots; never realized that before) a different gene is at work, the 'white spotting' gene, as opposed to the 'white masking' gene or the albinism gene. (This is the same gene that creates tuxedo cats, magpie cats, 'van-' pattern cats, etc. in non-torties.) It works similarly though to the 'white masking' gene, just like you describe--all the other colors their genes code for are still produced; they just never make it up to the skin layer during fetal development, and so don't take effect (whereas two recessive albinism genes shut down pigment production altogether). In the case of 'white masking' this effect is total, in the case of 'white spotting' it's only partial. A somewhat similar process is involved in the brindling that both torties and calicos show, only there it's more of a competition between colors (X-linked ones in that case) for which gets to which area of skin first, rather than 'masking' of the other colors. Apparently it does occasionally happen that a cat with two dominant 'white spotting' genes will express that by appearing all-white, however I don't think that's a possibility in U2Fanatic4ever's case, as a cat with only dominant copies of that gene to pass on couldn't possibly produce solid black and tortie kittens. Then there are also wholly separate 'browning' genes (double recessive turns black pigment brown); 'dilution' genes (double recessive turns black into gray or 'blue', dark browns--if the browning gene is present too--into light browns or 'lavenders', and ginger into buff or cream); and 'rufism' genes (affecting the intensity of any ginger pigment present), further affecting the end result in some cats. Technically there are only two true 'base' colors--black and ginger (just as in human hair) and those are on the X chromosome, in cats anyhow.

:slinksbackintoarmchairgeekdom:

 

[Justin24]

Turtle vs Cat ( A real life teenage mutant ninja turtle)

http://break.com/index/a-real-ninja-turtle.html

 

[U2Fanatic4ever]

Right, I read about that in the info on whiteness I was looking at, too. In calicos (which are genetically just torties with white spots; never realized that before) a different gene is at work, the 'white spotting' gene, as opposed to the 'white masking' gene or the albinism gene. (This is the same gene that creates tuxedo cats, magpie cats, 'van-' pattern cats, etc. in non-torties.) It works similarly though to the 'white masking' gene, just like you describe--all the other colors their genes code for are still produced; they just never make it up to the skin layer during fetal development, and so don't take effect (whereas two recessive albinism genes shut down pigment production altogether). In the case of 'white masking' this effect is total, in the case of 'white spotting' it's only partial. A somewhat similar process is involved in the brindling that both torties and calicos show, only there it's more of a competition between colors (X-linked ones in that case) for which gets to which area of skin first, rather than 'masking' of the other colors. Apparently it does occasionally happen that a cat with two dominant 'white spotting' genes will express that by appearing all-white, however I don't think that's a possibility in U2Fanatic4ever's case, as a cat with only dominant copies of that gene to pass on couldn't possibly produce solid black and tortie kittens. Then there are also wholly separate 'browning' genes (double recessive turns black pigment brown); 'dilution' genes (double recessive turns black into gray or 'blue', dark browns--if the browning gene is present too--into light browns or 'lavenders', and ginger into buff or cream); and 'rufism' genes (affecting the intensity of any ginger pigment present) further affecting the end result in some cats. Technically there are only two true 'base' colors--black and ginger (just as in human hair) and those are on the X chromosome, in cats anyhow.

:slinksbackintoarmchairgeekdom:

well, after all that..

All I can say is that Isabella came from one black parent and a cream parent thus producing 2 white/or cream kittens, 2 black kittens and her. This is just how the genetics worked out in her case I guess.

 

[yolland]

Right, that's the bottom line... My guess is her 'white' parent was carrying one dominant 'white masking' gene (which s/he passed along to two of its kittens) and therefore was white, even though s/he also carried the dominant ginger gene, 'O' (which Isabella inherited). As an outside possibility, s/he could've been a double recessive albino instead (that would still allow for the presence of a ginger gene), but that's a lot less likely statistically. (Or even less likely, my initial guess--a very heavily diluted ginger with no 'white masking' or albinism expressed at all.) Then those two black kittens, whether female ('oo'--double recessive, X-linked black) or male ('o'--single recessive, X-linked black), missed out on the 'O' ginger gene...either because one or both of them were girls and mom was genetically a 'white tortie', so to speak ('Oo' + either 'white masking' or albinism) with a spare 'o' to pass along, or else because they were both boys, in which case mom could've been either 'Oo' ('white tortie') or 'oo' (black)--since dad had only a Y chromosome to offer, and the Y doesn't carry either 'O' or 'o'. Who knows what the 'white' kittens may have been carrying genes for--if they did have either one dominant 'white masking' gene or two recessive albinism genes, then it's quite possible that if they ever produced any offspring, there were some Isabella-type 'surprises' in the litter, depending on what the other parent looked like.

For contrast, here's a pic of one of our cats, Lucia--less elegant-looking than Isabella, but as you can see, also a tortie:

Lucia's an adopted stray, so we don't know anything about her parents, but anyhow, as with any tortie, what you're seeing when you look at her is alternating patches of (recessive/'o'), black-based color from one parent, and (dominant/'O') ginger-based color from the other. Lucia isn't as diluted as Isabella is, so her black isn't grayed down, and her ginger looks redder than Isabella's. Isabella's 'gray' had to come from her black parent though, as it could only have had one (or two, if female) recessive genes for black ('o' or 'oo') to offer in order to be black, and 'gray' can't be produced by the ginger gene, no matter how diluted it is. Whereas her 'ginger' patches appear 'brownish' because they're diluted (and she probably also has less 'rufism' than Lucia does)--rather than the sort of 'brown' that comes from black pigment under the influence of 'browning' genes. Neither of them seem to show much browning of their black patches.

OK, I really will shut up now, I promise...

 

[Liesje]

Hmm, I wonder what Marijke's parents are. She's a mix of torti (not dilute), tabby, and has one orange calico-esque patch on her face and a few cream spots on her feet. Most of her fur is ticked, solid black or brown, but the fur on her belly is a solid cream.

 

[ylimeU2]

Wow. All that was really interesting and really informative.

I was working on a paper last night and one of my cats, Pokey, wanted to sleep in my desk chair (he thinks it is his bed). When I wouldn't move, he squeezed in where he could, using my leg as a pillow.

 

[kellyahern]

Wow. All that was really interesting and really informative.

I was working on a paper last night and one of my cats, Pokey, wanted to sleep in my desk chair (he thinks it is his bed). When I wouldn't move, he squeezed in where he could, using my leg as a pillow.

x 1,000!

 

[yolland]

Hmm, I wonder what Marijke's parents are. She's a mix of torti (not dilute), tabby, and has one orange calico-esque patch on her face and a few cream spots on her feet. Most of her fur is ticked, solid black or brown, but the fur on her belly is a solid cream.

What I found most helpful was starting with
Wikipedia's 'cat coat genetics' page,
then if you want more detail (but maybe slightly less scientific accuracy), try:
messybeast.com's Breeding & Genetics section (see 'Basics')

Any cat with two recessive 'dilution' genes will express whatever combo of base colors it has (black, ginger, or black + ginger) in diluted form--it doesn't have to be a tortie. Tabby is a group of pattern, rather than color, genes--all cats carry tabby genes, and if you know what you're looking for, you can detect some amount of tabby pattern in all but solid black, solid dilute black (gray/blue) or 'masked white'/albino cats...in the former two because a double recessive form of a gene called 'agouti' is suppressing the tabby pattern (whereas there's no such thing as a solid ginger or solid dilute ginger, i.e. cream--they can have the double recessive agouti, but the ginger gene always 'overrides' the suppression mechanism, resulting in at least a few tabby 'ghost marks'). Marijke's 'brown' patches are presumably in reality non-'rufous' ginger patches--as a tortie, it's guaranteed that she carries and expresses both black and ginger through 'brindling', even if the tabby patterning (e.g., the classic "M" design on her forehead) breaks them up into distinct ticked areas. Her 'cream' patches are probably caused by the 'white spotting' gene. Not sure how to account for that lone bright ginger patch--I suppose that's either a spot where 'rufism' is expressed particularly strongly, or else she is in fact somewhat dilute (is that gray on her cheeks and around her eyes?), and that spot is just less diluted than her other ginger patches. Neither rufism nor dilution are necessarily expressed wholly uniformly across the body; also, I'm not sure whether they might perhaps be 'incomplete dominance' traits--e.g., whether a 'Dd' (nondilute + dilute) cat might display some amount of dilution...just a whole lot less than a 'dd'.

 

[Liesje]

Tabby is a group of pattern, rather than color, genes--all cats carry tabby genes, and if you know what you're looking for, you can detect some amount of tabby pattern in all but solid black, solid dilute black (gray/blue) or 'masked white'/albino cats.

So true. Posh is black and white and Beckham is solid gray, but in both you can see tabby stripes under the right lighting (Posh's stripes are visible on the parts of her that are black). I wonder if that's the same as a "black panther" still having visible spots...?

 

[U2Girl1978]

Wow. All that was really interesting and really informative.

I was working on a paper last night and one of my cats, Pokey, wanted to sleep in my desk chair (he thinks it is his bed). When I wouldn't move, he squeezed in where he could, using my leg as a pillow.

That is so cute!!

Does anyone know if Peach Lily plants are dangerous for cats?

 

[Liesje]

I'm not familiar with a Peach Lily, but lillies in general are some of the most dangerous plants for cats. They are my favorite, but I've banned Phil from ever getting them for me (he used to before I had cats).

 

[U2Girl1978]

Evil Chloe.

 

[ylimeU2]

I'm not familiar with a Peach Lily, but lilies in general are some of the most dangerous plants for cats. They are my favorite, but I've banned Phil from ever getting them for me (he used to before I had cats).

All lilies very dangerous for cats.

This site has a good list of poisonous to cat plants.

http://www.cfainc.org/articles/plants.html

And this page has plants and other toxins.

http://animalcare.lacounty.gov/poisons.asp

Both specifically list peach lilies.