Where is our apology?
- Thread starter Dreadsox
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Scarletwine said:I must say your analogy makes mesick.
That is the entire point. We want to spread a different attitude to our enemies. Like "Love your enemies as yourselves".
To my mind it is not worth saving lives while losing your soul. That is why I knew this war would only produce hate and misery.
What about leading by example as Jesus or Gandhi or MLK did. To my mind it is much more effective than military might.
We should resolve the reasons terrorists can recruite not fill their ranks.
IF you think this war has produced only hate and misery, you have yet to listen to the soldiers and civilians that have worked very hard to make Iraq a better place. What do you think continued rule under Saddam Hussien would have produced? Your also ignoring the recent polls of Iraqi people who say their lives are now better than they were before the war.
The Wanderer brings up some good points.
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
Some things are worth fighting for, war is barbarous but sometimes leaving the status quo is the greater evil.
I do not advocate stooping to the level of terrorists, I loath the prospect of perpetual war and I believe we must preserve our liberties in the face of overwhelming threat from both terrorist's and governments. This must be balanced with a view of the world that does not ignore suffering, I see these prisoners being subjected to torture and I am sickened, the reference to having fingernails pulled out is apt because I would say that qualifies as serious torture. If the charges of rape are investigated and substantiated then I hope the guilty party is breaking rocks for the next five years but I will NOT fly off the handle and see this as a representative case study for all coalition prison conditions unless I see more evidence and a proper investigation.
The facts are as follows, there has been serious violations of the geneva convention by coalition troops, these cases have evidence and that is now being investigated within the context of a fair trial to determine guilt. If/When convicted the soldiers will pay for what they have done and all those responsible will be held accountable.
There is a problem and it is being solved, because I happen to think the abuse pales in the light of that from other parts of the world does not mean I advocate tougher treatment, far from it, I demand that justice is done for all the opressed peoples of the world and if that must be done (sometimes!) by way of the gun then so be it.
Freedom is indivisible, and when one man is enslaved, all are not free. ? JFK
I do not advocate stooping to the level of terrorists, I loath the prospect of perpetual war and I believe we must preserve our liberties in the face of overwhelming threat from both terrorist's and governments. This must be balanced with a view of the world that does not ignore suffering, I see these prisoners being subjected to torture and I am sickened, the reference to having fingernails pulled out is apt because I would say that qualifies as serious torture. If the charges of rape are investigated and substantiated then I hope the guilty party is breaking rocks for the next five years but I will NOT fly off the handle and see this as a representative case study for all coalition prison conditions unless I see more evidence and a proper investigation.
The facts are as follows, there has been serious violations of the geneva convention by coalition troops, these cases have evidence and that is now being investigated within the context of a fair trial to determine guilt. If/When convicted the soldiers will pay for what they have done and all those responsible will be held accountable.
There is a problem and it is being solved, because I happen to think the abuse pales in the light of that from other parts of the world does not mean I advocate tougher treatment, far from it, I demand that justice is done for all the opressed peoples of the world and if that must be done (sometimes!) by way of the gun then so be it.
Freedom is indivisible, and when one man is enslaved, all are not free. ? JFK
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Angela Harlem
Jesus Online
STING2 said:
Wow. I hope you can see a glaring inconsistency in your views here. You ask (reasonably or not is beside the point) for people to be patient and wait for investigations into these abuses, and seem incredibly wary (perhaps justifiably so - but again beside the point) but are calling the incarcerated "terrorists".
STING there has been no trial for so many of these people. At least with the fucknuts in yours and the British army who are without a doubt abusing POW's, there is pictorial proof.
I know you are going to reply with a whole bunch of rhetoric on the need for safety, the justification of the war, the admittance that abuse does occur in some way in any large group or organisation, and probably that some of these detained are infact suspicious individuals. I am not going to argue any of that. What bothers me is how you seem so inclined to keep referring to these people as guilty, yet when it is your precious military you are so slow to judge.
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
It's all very Kafkaesque, read The Trial it's gained renewed relevance in todays world.
2861U2
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Originally posted by STING2
Scarletwine
New Yorker
This incident is no different than many wars, many countries. A few quotes during our Phillipine occupation:
I went down on my knees and prayed to Almighty God for light and guidance ? and one night late it came to me this way.? We could not leave (the Philippines) to themselves--they were unfit for self-government--and they would soon have anarchy and misrule over there worse than Spain's was.? There was nothing left for us to do but take them all and educate the Filipinos, and uplift and Christianize them.": President William McKinley
Doesn't that sound familiar -sickening.
Our men . . . have killed to exterminate men, women, children, prisoners and captives, active insurgents and suspected people from lads of 10 up.... Our soldiers have pumped salt water into men to "make them talk," and have taken prisoners people who held up their hands and peacefully surrendered, and an hour later. . . stood them on a bridge and shot them down one by one, to drop into the water below and float down, as examples to those who found their bullet-loaded corpses.": Philadelphia Ledger newspaper in 1901, from its Manila [Philippines] correspondent during the US war with Spain for the control of the Philippines
Our wonderful history.
And one from a more recent past.
The only place you and I disagree . . . is with regard to the bombing. You're so goddamned concerned about the civilians, and I (in contrast) don't give a damn. I don't care."
. . . "I'd rather use the nuclear bomb. . . Does that bother you? I just want you to think big." : Richard Nixon to Secretary of State Henry Kissinger on the Watergate tapes
When you demonize your opponent as our admin has it's easy to see how these soldiers acted that way.
I went down on my knees and prayed to Almighty God for light and guidance ? and one night late it came to me this way.? We could not leave (the Philippines) to themselves--they were unfit for self-government--and they would soon have anarchy and misrule over there worse than Spain's was.? There was nothing left for us to do but take them all and educate the Filipinos, and uplift and Christianize them.": President William McKinley
Doesn't that sound familiar -sickening.
Our men . . . have killed to exterminate men, women, children, prisoners and captives, active insurgents and suspected people from lads of 10 up.... Our soldiers have pumped salt water into men to "make them talk," and have taken prisoners people who held up their hands and peacefully surrendered, and an hour later. . . stood them on a bridge and shot them down one by one, to drop into the water below and float down, as examples to those who found their bullet-loaded corpses.": Philadelphia Ledger newspaper in 1901, from its Manila [Philippines] correspondent during the US war with Spain for the control of the Philippines
Our wonderful history.
And one from a more recent past.
The only place you and I disagree . . . is with regard to the bombing. You're so goddamned concerned about the civilians, and I (in contrast) don't give a damn. I don't care."
. . . "I'd rather use the nuclear bomb. . . Does that bother you? I just want you to think big." : Richard Nixon to Secretary of State Henry Kissinger on the Watergate tapes
When you demonize your opponent as our admin has it's easy to see how these soldiers acted that way.
Klaus
Refugee
STING2[/i] It is is the media's fault when they ignore the overwhelming amount of good things the coalition is doing in Iraq to spend most of if not all of their time reporting on the actions of a few dozen people.[/QUOTE] One problem might be that said:
*sarcasm on* Well what we saw on TV is murder or terrorism and if you don't believe that it was real torture that hapened to the iraqi people maybe you can get a flight to a iraqi prison and ask them to treat you like you saw it on the pictures.
If you like you can ask your wife or girlfriend if she wants to join the party. *sarcasm off*
ok stop talking such crap. You don't treat enemies like that or you commit war crimes! it is torture to throw stones on people, rape people or force them doing sexual things they don't want to do.
Some of the prisinors died because of the wounds so this is more than information gathering. Various people (incl. US soldiers in iraq) estimate that the number of civilists who simply were at the wrong place at the wrong time is much more than 50% so rethink what these people did to the imprisoned men
Maybe it would be helpfull to take a class in human rights
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
Legitimate question, what should be done to countries that violate international law with a total disregard for concequence?
beli
Blue Crack Addict
A_Wanderer said:
Send them to the Hague. All of them. Black, white, brindle, all religions, all nationalities, including the USA - send them to the Hague.
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Klaus
Refugee
beli 
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
What if the countries flat out refuse to comply and will just continue abusing like Saddam Hussein's Iraq? What action would be suitible dealing with him (an ideal case study)?
Klaus
Refugee
A_Wanderer: what about:
1st the ICC finds out if the one accused is guilty or not
2nd if he refuses to comply the security council decides if they use military help to bring him to justice (=do to him whatever the icc decided)
Like basstrap quoted in another article:
"he said the US should never attack unilaterally. Because if you can't convince other nations that the war is just than you should reconsider your reasoning. "
Or like Executive Chairman, UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission, Mr. Blix said:
"...However, I am pleased that we were able to show that international, independent professional inspection came to results that were closer to the truth and reality than intelligence agencies which were dependent upon national governments."
1st the ICC finds out if the one accused is guilty or not
2nd if he refuses to comply the security council decides if they use military help to bring him to justice (=do to him whatever the icc decided)
Like basstrap quoted in another article:
"he said the US should never attack unilaterally. Because if you can't convince other nations that the war is just than you should reconsider your reasoning. "
Or like Executive Chairman, UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission, Mr. Blix said:
"...However, I am pleased that we were able to show that international, independent professional inspection came to results that were closer to the truth and reality than intelligence agencies which were dependent upon national governments."
Klaus
Refugee
Dreadsox: and Lobbying from some people who wanted to gain power in iraq and some companies who wanted lucrative contracts in Iraq made this war necessary?
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
The simple fact is that there is no real method to punish delinquent governments who make their people suffer. If you convict their leaders in absentia then there is no obligation to hand the guilty party over, sanctions are used as a tool to reinforce the power base of the dictatorship by making the population totally reliant on them, it doesnt solve any problem merely delays and contains them. War is unfortunately a real option and in some circumstances it is the more humane option.
It is a fact that Saddam Hussein remaining in power was a greater humanitarian disaster than the war and its aftermath.
How can we stand by for years preaching about how much we respect international law when we will not stand up for it?
How many people have to die before we act, how much blood is required for the peace of the grave that so many people seem to desire?
It is a fact that Saddam Hussein remaining in power was a greater humanitarian disaster than the war and its aftermath.
How can we stand by for years preaching about how much we respect international law when we will not stand up for it?
How many people have to die before we act, how much blood is required for the peace of the grave that so many people seem to desire?
Klaus
Refugee
>How can we stand by for years preaching
>about how much we respect international
>law when we will not stand up for it?
The current US government dosn't respect international laws anymore. You can see this for example what they do to reduce the power of the ICC you can see this in the way they decided who's a pow in iraq war (bush senior) compared to iraq war bush junior (3. genova convention)
You can see this in the way they want to put Guantamo prisinors to court. The President and his atandes are accusation, judge, jurymen and executioners in one person. The accused person can't talk with his advocate without the presence of the military (who are judge, jurymen etc). that dosn't fit international standards of a fair trial.
It remembers me to the witch hunt in the dark ages of europe. And Mr. Bushs words of a crusade fit exactly into that picture.
And all this in the name of liberation of the iraqi people?
A war against terror while the liberators terrorize civilians and the only excuse we have is "the terrorists don't behave better than we do so shut the f** up"?
We were convinced that Iraq had links to al-quaida and 9/11, that the Iraq had WMDs and was a IMMINENT threat to the world, ok forget about this it's about liberation of the poor iraqi people (what about the imminent threat of n.korea who definetly have WMDs? shut up boy the president knows what he does)
Ok in the name of liberation we should live highest standards to show the iraqi people why we attacked the country and how much better it is to live in a western democratic society. And every single person that behaves like these soldiers and behaves like mr. rumsfeld should resign, thrown out of job and emediately have to go to court because of their responsibility.
Throwing our western humanitarian values into dirt.
A personal apology is the first step - not the last!
>about how much we respect international
>law when we will not stand up for it?
The current US government dosn't respect international laws anymore. You can see this for example what they do to reduce the power of the ICC you can see this in the way they decided who's a pow in iraq war (bush senior) compared to iraq war bush junior (3. genova convention)
You can see this in the way they want to put Guantamo prisinors to court. The President and his atandes are accusation, judge, jurymen and executioners in one person. The accused person can't talk with his advocate without the presence of the military (who are judge, jurymen etc). that dosn't fit international standards of a fair trial.
It remembers me to the witch hunt in the dark ages of europe. And Mr. Bushs words of a crusade fit exactly into that picture.
And all this in the name of liberation of the iraqi people?
A war against terror while the liberators terrorize civilians and the only excuse we have is "the terrorists don't behave better than we do so shut the f** up"?
We were convinced that Iraq had links to al-quaida and 9/11, that the Iraq had WMDs and was a IMMINENT threat to the world, ok forget about this it's about liberation of the poor iraqi people (what about the imminent threat of n.korea who definetly have WMDs? shut up boy the president knows what he does)
Ok in the name of liberation we should live highest standards to show the iraqi people why we attacked the country and how much better it is to live in a western democratic society. And every single person that behaves like these soldiers and behaves like mr. rumsfeld should resign, thrown out of job and emediately have to go to court because of their responsibility.
Throwing our western humanitarian values into dirt.
A personal apology is the first step - not the last!
Scarletwine
New Yorker
Alright Klaus.
You are exactly right.
You are exactly right.
verte76
Blue Crack Addict
Great post Klaus! My sentiments exactly.
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
The Iraq/911 links did not exist then and the US government never explicitly said that Saddam had a connection to 9/11. I doubted any connection existed before the war and I havent seen anything solid connection since the war.
Politics is about making the right decisions in different situations, N-Korea is not a situation where you could attack without a very very very real threat to millions of people, hence it is being treated along diplomatic lines just as it was the first time round. Saddam has had 12 years to show he has verifiably disarmend and every step of the way he has obfuscated and hid behind beurocracy, during this time over a million Iraqi's died!.
Over one million dead Iraqi's because we were willing to leave the regime in power for those years, Saddam would have lasted at least another decade and things would not have gotten any better so we may say that 3 million innocent people would die so that his barbaric regime could retain it's right of soverignty.
15,000 is the number or Iraqi's that have died in the past year during the insurgency and US millitary operations.
2,000,000 is the number of Iraqi's that would have to die for "peace"
I am not alone in the belief that might may be right in some situations, I suggest everyone read this article for another point of view.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005071
Some may accuse me of being more of a warmonger than a Nobel laureate, but I stand ready to face my critics. It is always easier to say no to war, even at the price of appeasement. But being politically correct means leaving the innocent to suffer the world over, from Phnom Penh to Baghdad. And that is what those who would cut and run from Iraq risk doing.
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA
Politics is about making the right decisions in different situations, N-Korea is not a situation where you could attack without a very very very real threat to millions of people, hence it is being treated along diplomatic lines just as it was the first time round. Saddam has had 12 years to show he has verifiably disarmend and every step of the way he has obfuscated and hid behind beurocracy, during this time over a million Iraqi's died!.
Over one million dead Iraqi's because we were willing to leave the regime in power for those years, Saddam would have lasted at least another decade and things would not have gotten any better so we may say that 3 million innocent people would die so that his barbaric regime could retain it's right of soverignty.
15,000 is the number or Iraqi's that have died in the past year during the insurgency and US millitary operations.
2,000,000 is the number of Iraqi's that would have to die for "peace"
I am not alone in the belief that might may be right in some situations, I suggest everyone read this article for another point of view.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005071
Some may accuse me of being more of a warmonger than a Nobel laureate, but I stand ready to face my critics. It is always easier to say no to war, even at the price of appeasement. But being politically correct means leaving the innocent to suffer the world over, from Phnom Penh to Baghdad. And that is what those who would cut and run from Iraq risk doing.
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA
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beli
Blue Crack Addict
But do you think the yanks should be brought to justice for their war crimes too?
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A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
I think that justice is being done allready, the guilty parties are being found out and will be dealt with within the law.
I will just clarify that I have not seen evidence for WAR CRIMES in US actions, I see abuse and some criminal actions by soldiers and possibly someone higher up but not War Crimes.
I will just clarify that I have not seen evidence for WAR CRIMES in US actions, I see abuse and some criminal actions by soldiers and possibly someone higher up but not War Crimes.
beli
Blue Crack Addict
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A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
We will see but I think that there is a distinction between what those US soldiers did and the crimes of the Serbian Army. Justice is being done and we should wait until there is a verdict before we criticize.
War is never a clear cut situation and too often people rush to judge before knowing the facts. I stand by my statement that what I have seen so far only rates about 6/10 on the torture scale. I know there is worse out there but I am only going to comment on what I have seen and what I know.
War is never a clear cut situation and too often people rush to judge before knowing the facts. I stand by my statement that what I have seen so far only rates about 6/10 on the torture scale. I know there is worse out there but I am only going to comment on what I have seen and what I know.
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beli
Blue Crack Addict
Its a bit like being a little bit pregnant - you either are or you arent.
Yes, justice may well be done in the US. Im hoping they dont scapegoat all the junior soldiers and let the big guns go free.
Yes, justice may well be done in the US. Im hoping they dont scapegoat all the junior soldiers and let the big guns go free.
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
It is not a dichotomy of being a brutal war criminal or totally innocent soldier. There are degrees of violation and degrees of sentence.
Using the logic of a little bit pregnant in regards to human rights and war crimes the USA is equally as bad as Saddam Hussein's Iraq. I don't believe that this is the case and I assert that the violation is minor when it comes to other violations that have been procecuted.
Using the logic of a little bit pregnant in regards to human rights and war crimes the USA is equally as bad as Saddam Hussein's Iraq. I don't believe that this is the case and I assert that the violation is minor when it comes to other violations that have been procecuted.
Klaus
Refugee
Dreadsox: It's ok, we don't have to discuss this. I respect that you have a different opinion and i can't prove mine.
Whenever somebody starts a thread where this fits we could discuss it again
A_Wanderer:
I'm sure the Bush Administration said never something a lawyer could proof that it was a lie but they said lots of things that the mayority of the US citizens thought Saddam Hussein was behind the 9/11 attacks right before the war started.
And to the war crimes... we have to wait and to find out how the Administration handles these crimes.
We will see if they are willing to punish the responsible men (Remember Mr. Rumsfeld said he'd take full responsibility) like we expect other governments to punish men who would treat US citizens this way.
This is important and from my point of view non negotiable because of the credibility of the coalition forces, their governments and even their citizens.
It would have bin verry helpful if the governments of the coalition would have listened to the International Red Cross, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and similar organisations who warned about crimes like these more than a year ago and it would be even more helpful if the envolved governments would not only examine what hapened at this jail where they have the videotape but also all the other places were these credible institutions warned about abuse (incl. Afghanistan and Guantamo Bay)
It might also be helpful for you to think about what you'd expect from your government if treatment like this hapened in your country in a jail to people who have not bin to court yet - therefore it's not clear if they are guilty or not.
This isn't a thing that "just" affects Iraqi terrorists it's something that affects the Honor and Credibility of all US soldiers who didn't commit Warcrimes and it even affects our Credibility and Honor.
Klaus
Whenever somebody starts a thread where this fits we could discuss it again
A_Wanderer:
I'm sure the Bush Administration said never something a lawyer could proof that it was a lie but they said lots of things that the mayority of the US citizens thought Saddam Hussein was behind the 9/11 attacks right before the war started.
And to the war crimes... we have to wait and to find out how the Administration handles these crimes.
We will see if they are willing to punish the responsible men (Remember Mr. Rumsfeld said he'd take full responsibility) like we expect other governments to punish men who would treat US citizens this way.
This is important and from my point of view non negotiable because of the credibility of the coalition forces, their governments and even their citizens.
It would have bin verry helpful if the governments of the coalition would have listened to the International Red Cross, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and similar organisations who warned about crimes like these more than a year ago and it would be even more helpful if the envolved governments would not only examine what hapened at this jail where they have the videotape but also all the other places were these credible institutions warned about abuse (incl. Afghanistan and Guantamo Bay)
It might also be helpful for you to think about what you'd expect from your government if treatment like this hapened in your country in a jail to people who have not bin to court yet - therefore it's not clear if they are guilty or not.
This isn't a thing that "just" affects Iraqi terrorists it's something that affects the Honor and Credibility of all US soldiers who didn't commit Warcrimes and it even affects our Credibility and Honor.
Klaus
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beli
Blue Crack Addict
We agree that there have been violations. This is good. Im of the opinion that offenders of minor violations should be prosecuted as well as major violations. The sentence/punishment may well differ, but the crimes still need to be addressed regardless of how minor.A_Wanderer said:
Personally I dont think traumatising a prisioner to believe that if he moved off a box he would be electrocuted to death is not that much minor than traumatising a prisioner to believe that he will be beheaded, and then beheading him. Yes, death is worse, but both are still huge crimes to me.
If any body pulled that electrocution stunt on my child I would certainly want them put away for quite some time.
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