MERGED: The Battle of Fallujah/Thank God We're Not in Fallujah

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Scarletwine said:


That is true, but unneccessary slaughter is unnecessary. I thought this sentence was very thoughtful and instructive.


http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news2/age14.htm

Surely now, the governments that took us to this war and we, as people who are happy to re-elect them, must face up to our culpability for this carnage. We claim to hold that the lives of civilians are sacrosanct. We assert that the fabric of humanity is torn with every death of every innocent civilian. Indeed, that is why terrorism sickens us.

So why do we not think of these deaths as tragic in the same way we do those of September 11, Bali, Madrid or Beslan? For the Iraqis, we will hold no multi-faith services, no commemorative anniversary functions and we will give no human faces to them. Perhaps some innocent lives are more sacrosanct than others.
We are talking about four times the number of September 11 casualties. Eight planes and eight towers.

Of course, there is a crucial difference between the civilian deaths caused by terrorism, and those caused by the US-led coalition in Iraq. Coalition forces did not target the innocent as terrorists do.

True, we should not lose sight of this. But we should also not abuse it to dehumanise those we have killed, and evade the responsibility we rightfully bear. We speak of Iraqi civilians, even 100,000 of them, not as victims, but as collateral damage. We did not murder them as terrorists murder their victims, because there was no intention to kill them.

It is simply not good enough to hide our guilt in this way. Our actions were always destined to claim thousands of civilian lives. This was not merely probable; it was certain. We recognised that certainty and pressed on anyway. The fact that killing innocents was not the aim, but rather a guaranteed byproduct of our action, does not absolve us.
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Damn straight. What we're doing in Fallujah is wrong.
 
They have found a mutilated body of a caucasian woman in Fallujah, that is why this operation must go ahead to remove this base of operations for the terrorists and kill a good many of them, to slow the carbombings and kidnappings, in the real world whatever you do there is always a price be it through action or inaction - innocent people are killed by both sides in this urban combat environment, but if we were to shirk off the necessity then even more innocent people would be on the recieving end of carbombs (and they know where to strike, case in point at children during the opening of a waste treatment plant). Action and inaction are the fundamental driving forces for everything.
 
I watched a very interesting program on my local channel last night. It was about the US Army and what they're doing in Iraq. After all this negative news you hear every day, it was refreshing to know how badly the troops want to achieve a peaceful Iraq. I haven't heard a ton of good news about Iraq from CNN and other liberal organizations, but I still remain very neutral on the war.

My thought is, if we have so much negativity about the war, how does it send a good message to our troops? The vast majority of our troops want us at home to support what they're doing. I find it hard to trust both liberal and conservative views on the war.

Many conservatives are still saying that we did everything right. Not exactly, we relied on flawed intelligence to bring us into the country in the first place. We still haven't found WMD's, and we won't search Syria and other terrorist nations for them for political reasons.

The liberals are saying that Saddam's capture and the deaths of Uday and Qusay have not made us any safer. We must realize what the future of that country could've been if we didn't bring an end to 25 years of a cruel and unusual regime.
 
Mutilated bodies dumped on Fallujah’s bombed out streets today painted a harrowing picture of eight months of rebel rule.

As US and Iraqi troops mopped up the last vestiges of resistance in the city after a week of bombardment and fighting, residents who stayed on through last week’s offensive were emerging and telling harrowing tales of the brutality they endured.

Flyposters still litter the walls bearing all manner of decrees from insurgent commanders, to be heeded on pain of death. Amid the rubble of the main shopping street, one decree bearing the insurgents’ insignia - two Kalashnikovs propped together - and dated November 1 gives vendors three days to remove nine market stalls from outside the city’s library or face execution.

The pretext given is that the rebels wanted to convert the building into a headquarters for the “Mujahidin Advisory Council” through which they ran the city.

Another poster in the ruins of the souk bears testament to the strict brand of Sunni Islam imposed by the council, fronted by hardline cleric Abdullah Junabi. The decree warns all women that they must cover up from head to toe outdoors, or face execution by the armed militants who controlled the streets.

Two female bodies found yesterday suggest such threats were far from idle. An Arab woman, in a violet nightdress, lay in a post-mortem embrace with a male corpse in the middle of the street. Both bodies had died from bullets to the head.

Just six metres away on the same street lay the decomposing corpse of a blonde-haired white woman, too disfigured for swift identification but presumed to be the body of one of the many foreign hostages kidnapped by the rebels.
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1359782,00.html

Yeah nice chaps those "Iraqi Minutemen", this represents the cost of inaction, I am more pissed that the US didn't go in 8 months ago all the way and instead wasted hundreds of innocent lives with this "peace".

fallujafuckyou


US Marines, no better friend, no worse enemy.
 
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Some thing I find hard to believe is that this battle came a week after one of the closest elections in America's History. I hope things will not continue like this, but odds are they will.

Fallujah is not the last stand of terrorism as Bush is making it out to be. After we win Fallujah their will be another central for insurgents and then another. They won’t all lay down their rifles and say "Oh boy I guess this was our last stand. Let's put aside our differences and move on". We are just caught in a spiral of violence that shows no sign of stopping.

What’s worse is that we still have the Afghans to deal with and the shinny city of Jerusalem has caught Mr. Bush's eye.
 
Afghanistan is being built up slowly but surely, you do know that they just had their first elections and they were very successfull.
 
Not as much as you think. In fact the election was considered rigged by many experts. Voting registration was completely off. Most towns did not have a popular vote but one determined by the “local party” (Your local War Lord) and opium money was every where. I don’t think it was as free as everyone seems to be making it out to be.
 
Norse said:
Not as much as you think. In fact the election was considered rigged by many experts. Voting registration was completely off. Most towns did not have a popular vote but one determined by the “local party” (Your local War Lord) and opium money was every where. I don’t think it was as free as everyone seems to be making it out to be.
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Has there ever been a more free election in Afghanistans 5,000 plus history than this one, or for that matter even another election?

Any study of Afghanistan's history will show that this event is amazing.
 
Norse said:
Some thing I find hard to believe is that this battle came a week after one of the closest elections in America's History. I hope things will not continue like this, but odds are they will.

Fallujah is not the last stand of terrorism as Bush is making it out to be. After we win Fallujah their will be another central for insurgents and then another. They won’t all lay down their rifles and say "Oh boy I guess this was our last stand. Let's put aside our differences and move on". We are just caught in a spiral of violence that shows no sign of stopping.

What’s worse is that we still have the Afghans to deal with and the shinny city of Jerusalem has caught Mr. Bush's eye.
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If the battle had come a week before the election, people would be attacking Bush saying he launched the attack on Fallujah to increased his chances of winning the election. The Presidents poll numbers improved during the last attack on Fallujah in April.

This past election was not one of the closest election in US history as I know off hand ten other elections that were closer. In addition, it was the first time that a President recieved more than 50% of the vote since 1988 when Bush's father first won the White House.

Bush NEVER made Fallujah out to be the last stand for terrorism in Iraq. The US has plans to keep over 140,000 troops in Iraq through 2005 into 2006 as well as sending Billions more dollars in aid money. Fallujah was a city that needed to be cleaned of insurgents. It was the central base for insurgents in Iraq as found by the massive amounts of bomb making materials for IED's, that Marines found in the city. Secret Tunnel complex's with massive stocks of ammo were found as were torture chambers and rooms where terrible attrocities took place.

What the troops have done in Fallujah is AMAZING!
 
Sting again I say you are the man, every time that somebody knocks your arguments for not being emotional tug-at-heartstrings sob stories take it as a compliment that you are arguing the point properly.
 
Has there ever been a more free election in Afghanistans 5,000 plus history than this one, or for that matter even another election?
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There was acctually one in 1987 but it got overthrown by civil war, but I see your point. What I am saying that even though it was a step towards democracy, it might not have been a huge one considering the numbers. I think it was in the New York Times, that I read that 1/3 of the voters voted twice, tryed to vote twice, or registered twice.

I admit this election was a step forward in Afgan history but lets not make it in to something it was not.

If the battle had come a week before the election, people would be attacking Bush saying he launched the attack on Fallujah to increased his chances of winning the election. The Presidents poll numbers improved during the last attack on Fallujah in April.
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I dont know where you got that. Gallup had him down in FP and Iraq. Don’t look at whole numbers the week after an election victory.

This past election was not one of the closest election in US history as I know off hand ten other elections that were closer. In addition, it was the first time that a President recieved more than 50% of the vote since 1988 when Bush's father first won the White House.
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I meant in the context of partisanship general feeling. The Election was quite close however, but I dont know where it places in the top 10. I am pretty sure it is there though.


Bush NEVER made Fallujah out to be the last stand for terrorism in Iraq. The US has plans to keep over 140,000 troops in Iraq through 2005 into 2006 as well as sending Billions more dollars in aid money. Fallujah was a city that needed to be cleaned of insurgents. It was the central base for insurgents in Iraq as found by the massive amounts of bomb making materials for IED's, that Marines found in the city. Secret Tunnel complex's with massive stocks of ammo were found as were torture chambers and rooms where terrible attrocities took place.
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I have never seen evidence of any of that. First off it is not Bush making Fallujah in to the last stand its the media. I don’t know where you got all of that, you may be right I may be wrong :p

In general Fallujah was a victory but I would say a critical one. There will always be a Fallujah. I think we just need to wait a week before a new one pops up.
 
"Every act of creation is first of all an act of destruction."
-- Pablo Picasso

like the iraqi civlian said - dont look at the destruction , look to the future..
that is what im going to try to do

its impossible not to look at the destruction - but something good can come of it
 
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A_Wanderer said:
Sting again I say you are the man, every time that somebody knocks your arguments for not being emotional tug-at-heartstrings sob stories take it as a compliment that you are arguing the point properly.
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I'd be afraid to argue with him. He ends up writing half a novel to defend himself.
 
That's about the best way to surrender. He probably never knew you were actually surrendering until now. :hmm:
 
I don't mind a friendly debate. It helps me understand why the opposite side feels the way they do, rather than going on thinking that each other are hypocrites and all that crap. In reality, we follow a different set of principals, and it's for the individual to decide what they believe in.
 
Of course there are words, rotting bodies in the street, kids with their faces torn to shreds and soldiers covered in blood. One shouldn't construct a bloodless view of what goes on there, but I suppose that the only way one could ever defend that action would be to go there themselves. Interesting article by somebody who is there talking about the relative absence of civilians.
American forces say they are still fighting small pockets of insurgents in the city of Falluja.

Our correspondent, Paul Wood, is with American marines in the city. He gave the following interview to BBC Radio 4's Today programme:

<...>

Q: But as you travel with the American soldiers, do you come across civilians?

We saw literally a glimpse of civilians.

We were on the roof of a building - this was the first day of the battle in fact on Wednesday - and saw people waving white flags running away. And the marines stood up to say "Keep going, it's dangerous, don't come in this direction" and as soon as they did that, a volley of gunfire came in, because they'd revealed their position. And that was the only view of civilians that we have had.

One female civilian came to be treated at the medical post here and left before I had a chance to speak to her.

But I've questioned ordinary marines, officers and they say quite truthfully, we literally don't see civilians and that is the position of, I think, most of the US forces here - they do not see civilians...
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4012677.stm
 
Scarletwine said:
A tragedy for all :sad:

http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/
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I apologize, but I didn't click on the link. Reason being, I've heard plenty of bad news about this war. I've seen enough sickening images on the news. I appreciate your willingness to get me on my sensative side, and I've felt that way for a long time. :tsk:

I'm sad to see so many lives taken at such a young age, but in spite of it, we still need to support our troops, regardless of whether or not were for the war. They need to know that we're praying for them, and that we want them to succeed in their mission.
 
I just meant that there are no words to describe my reaction to it. I force myself to look at things like that, but it doesn't make it any less difficult.

I'm just sensitive, and I won't apologize for that.
 
Mrs. Springsteen,

I agree, I force myself to look at things like that so I don't become desensitized to the news from Iraq.

I'm becoming so upset everytime I hear of a new offensive, for the loss of our soldiers lives and souls and the Iraqis.
 
It is important to look at the pictures of dead and wounded civilians.

They are the only ones who had no choice in the matter. A soldier chose the military as his career, and an insurgent or terrorist chose violence. A child and his mother had nothing to do with it, no choice was given to them at all, nobody asked them if they wanted to sacrifice their lives, their children's lives, their parents' lives, their friends' lives for this.
 
What are you talking about?
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People have to see the result of war, every time, by looking away and ignoring it such a decision becomes that little bit easier. Also people should be paying closer attention to see the result of carbombs against a crowd of little kids, or the end product of the terrorists actions. Not to create any moral equivalence rather to see all sides of the problem.
 
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