financeguy
ONE love, blood, life
Double post
Last edited:
starsgoblue said:16This is why the fulfillment of God's promise depends entirely on trusting God and his way, and then simply embracing him and what he does. God's promise arrives as pure gift. That's the only way everyone can be sure to get in on it, those who keep the religious traditions and those who have never heard of them. For Abraham is father of us all. He is not our racial father--that's reading the story backwards. He is our faith father.
financeguy said:Why?
Bad Templar said:
The U2 and Bono of 1987 when I discovered them as a teenager are not the same as they are today....nor am I.
I thought I had more of a connection with the spirituality of Bono and U2 fans... I probably needed it once, but no more. Nor do I seem to be needed anymore.
Take care believers and non-believers and God bless.
BonoVoxSupastar said:
I find it to be ashame that you've lost belief in U2 and its fans.
I think the Bono of now and the Bono of 87 is actually more vocal about his beliefs in God. The proof is in All Because of You, Yaweh, When I Look at the World, Grace, etc. Also quoting Bible verses during the Elevation tour.
starsgoblue said:Ok, but what do we make of Romans 4 in light of this discussion then? (Message version translation, items in bold are my emphasis)
Romans 4
Trusting God
1So how do we fit what we know of Abraham, our first father in the faith, into this new way of looking at things? 2If Abraham, by what he did for God, got God to approve him, he could certainly have taken credit for it. But the story we're given is a God-story, not an Abraham-story. 3What we read in Scripture is, "Abraham entered into what God was doing for him, and that was the turning point. He trusted God to set him right instead of trying to be right on his own."
4If you're a hard worker and do a good job, you deserve your pay; we don't call your wages a gift. 5But if you see that the job is too big for you, that it's something only God can do, and you trust him to do it--you could never do it for yourself no matter how hard and long you worked--well, that trusting-him--to-do-it is what gets you set right with God, by God. Sheer gift.
6David confirms this way of looking at it, saying that the one who trusts God to do the putting-everything-right without insisting on having a say in it is one fortunate man:
7Fortunate those whose crimes are carted off,
whose sins are wiped clean from the slate.
8Fortunate the person against
whom the Lord does not keep score.
9Do you think for a minute that this blessing is only pronounced over those of us who keep our religious ways and are circumcised? Or do you think it possible that the blessing could be given to those who never even heard of our ways, who were never brought up in the disciplines of God? We all agree, don't we, that it was by embracing what God did for him that Abraham was declared fit before God?
10Now think: Was that declaration made before or after he was marked by the covenant rite of circumcision? That's right, before he was marked. 11That means that he underwent circumcision as evidence and confirmation of what God had done long before to bring him into this acceptable standing with himself, an act of God he had embraced with his whole life.
12And it means further that Abraham is father of all people who embrace what God does for them while they are still on the "outs" with God, as yet unidentified as God's, in an "uncircumcised" condition. It is precisely these people in this condition who are called "set right by God and with God"! Abraham is also, of course, father of those who have undergone the religious rite of circumcision not just because of the ritual but because they were willing to live in the risky faith-embrace of God's action for them, the way Abraham lived long before he was marked by circumcision.
13That famous promise God gave Abraham--that he and his children would possess the earth--was not given because of something Abraham did or would do. It was based on God's decision to put everything together for him, which Abraham then entered when he believed. 14If those who get what God gives them only get it by doing everything they are told to do and filling out all the right forms properly signed, that eliminates personal trust completely and turns the promise into an ironclad contract! That's not a holy promise; that's a business deal. 15A contract drawn up by a hard-nosed lawyer and with plenty of fine print only makes sure that you will never be able to collect. But if there is no contract in the first place, simply a promise--and God's promise at that--you can't break it.
16This is why the fulfillment of God's promise depends entirely on trusting God and his way, and then simply embracing him and what he does. God's promise arrives as pure gift. That's the only way everyone can be sure to get in on it, those who keep the religious traditions and those who have never heard of them. For Abraham is father of us all. He is not our racial father--that's reading the story backwards. He is our faith father.
briarrose said:
I just found this thread yesterday and was thrilled to see people talking about this. I was so upset after hearing Bono say those words, but after reading this thread, it's given me a new perspective. I watched the Slane Castle DVD the other day and he seemed much more spiritual during the Elevation tour than now. I have no idea where his heart is, I just hope and pray that he hasn't given up his faith.
Shaliz said:
I've been following this thread with interest because I've been seriously thinking about some of these same issues recently. At the moment I don't have anything really new to add to what's already been said, but I just wanted to respond to briarrose's concern about where Bono's faith is at these days. If you haven't had a chance to read Bono in Conversation with Michka Assayas, I would strongly recommend it. Bono is very open about his faith and makes his stand pretty clear.
80sU2isBest said:
stars, the letter of Romans was written specifically to the Christian church in Rome. When Paul uses the words "us" and "seed", he is referring to Christians. He is only talking about believers in the passage you have quoted. When Paul talks about the believers who have been "circumcised", he is talking about the Jews who became Christians. The other kind of Christians he is talking about here are the rest of the Christians, the gentile Christians. A big thing that was going on at this time in history was that many Jews who had become Christians were saying that in order to be saved, people had to go back and keep all the Jewish traditions. Paul is saying that Jewsih Christians and Gentile Christians are all the same and equal. Paul is not saying that nonChristians are children of the promise.
God's promise arrives as pure gift. That's the only way everyone can be sure to get in on it, those who keep the religious traditions and those who have never heard of them. For Abraham is father of us all. He is not our racial father--that's reading the story backwards. He is our faith father.
I'm thinking more and more that this hits the nail on the head of what Bono's trying to say. Because he what he entirely says is: "Jesus...Jew...Mohammed...It's true. All children of Abraham. If only we could coexist"
starsgoblue said:
I'm completley disagree. The passage directly speaks of people who haven't heard of God's ways.
starsgoblue said:Besides, even you were a nonChristian at some point in your life...you have taken and recieved that promise.
the soul waits said:"But I wasn't a child of promise until I received it."
80s : Can you explain this further for me, please? I'd like to understand, because I can empathize with what Stars quoted there.
On a personal level, I can state that I was (and in many ways still am) far from religious or "of faith"-whichever way you wish to describe it, but that I felt God's prescence very clearly a few months ago (I wrote about that in other threads already) and was so stunned and baffled by it, actually.
And even though I'm still stepping my first steps on this new path, I can clearly feel that He is working with me. How can that be, when I was nowhere near a bible, a church, other religious people? (except for my brother, who is a Protestant, but never talked about it to me unless I specifically asked about it-we do talk about it a lot now).
Not really...God telling Abraham that all his children will be blessed was not a promise of salvation.starsgoblue said:
And in your last sentence....that negates God's promise to Abraham.
80sU2isBest said:
When I say "a child of promise", please understand that I am meaning "one who is under the covenant of grace", in other words, someone who is reborn, saved, Christian. I am not saying that nonChristian people weren't included in Christ's plan of salvation; I believe that salvation is open to anyone - anyone can become a "child of promise" (although Calvinists might disagree with me). But I am saying that until a person is reborn (accepts Christ as Savior and Lord, admits their sin and receives forgiveness from God), that person is as Paul says "dead in his sin". Paul describes what happens at conversion as passing from death (spiritually dead, under the control of sin and death) to life (spiritually alive, not under the control of sin and death, because Christ broke those powers at the cross and at resurrection).
As for your personal experience, the only way I can answer is that the Holy Spirit "wooed you", maybe not even in words, but in the language of the spirit. Maybe he convicted you that something was missing in your life, and he urged you to seek the truth. We are called to witness to people about Christ, but he certainly doesn't need us. That may be the way he reveals himself to people in parts of the world in which the Gospel is never heard. What I do know, based on what Christ said is that
(1)No one comes to the Father but through Christ
(2)No man can enter the kingdom unless he be born again
I do not know how Christ deals with people who have never heard of Christ. I do believe that his judgment of them is different than those who have heard of Christ but rejected him, or in some cases, lacked the mental capacity to understand. I don't think he automatically gives them a ticket to Heaven, but I don't think he automatically gives them a ticket to hell, either.
But when it comes down to it, I don't have to know that answer, because I trust that God always does what is right. God is righteous and just.
80sU2isBest said:
Not really...God telling Abraham that all his children will be blessed was not a promise of salvation.
80sU2isBest said:
Where in that passage does it speak of people who haven't heard of God's ways?
80sU2isBest said:
However, this passage doesn't address that issue at all. It is strictly about Christians and Jews.
starsgoblue said:
Right here, several times....
9"Doyou think for a minute that this blessing is only pronounced over those of us who keep our religious ways and are circumcised? Or do you think it possible that the blessing could be given to those who never even heard of our ways, who were never brought up in the disciplines of God?"
starsgoblue said:
I don't think so....other translations rather than The Message one I've given here speaks of circumsicion of the heart as well...not literal circumcision in itself...
starsgoblue said:
I specifically have said in my posts that I'm not talking about the nature of salvation. I think we're discussing two different things here...
the soul waits said:"But I wasn't a child of promise until I received it."
80s : Can you explain this further for me, please? I'd like to understand, because I can empathize with what Stars quoted there.
On a personal level, I can state that I was (and in many ways still am) far from religious or "of faith"-whichever way you wish to describe it, but that I felt God's prescence very clearly a few months ago (I wrote about that in other threads already) and was so stunned and baffled by it, actually.
And even though I'm still stepping my first steps on this new path, I can clearly feel that He is working with me. How can that be, when I was nowhere near a bible, a church, other religious people? (except for my brother, who is a Protestant, but never talked about it to me unless I specifically asked about it-we do talk about it a lot now).
2Hearts said:
I'm silently keeping up with the conversation b/w 80s and Stars. I just hope the two of you can start talking about the same thing. This thing called communication can be difficult some times.
"Bono: In Conversation" is ESSENTIAL reading if you want to know the current state of Bono's faith. I found it amusing that he was constantly directing the conversations in a spiritual direction. At some point, I was expecting Michka to tell him that this was not supposed to be a book on theological discourse.
80sU2isBest said:
Not really...God telling Abraham that all his children will be blessed was not a promise of salvation.
2Hearts said:
First, I like your username! To answer your question about God working in someone's life who has little or no prior knowledge of Him, let me say that you're not alone. One example is that of American Helen Keller (1880-1968), who was left deaf and blind at 19 months old by scarlet fever. With no obvious way to communicate to others, she could have been lost to her own closed-in world. However, her teacher developed a way to communicate with her by spelling words out in the palm of her hand. When her teacher tried to explain the concept of God, Helen responded, "Thank you for telling me God's name, for He has touched me many times before." Helen later graduated from college and wrote over a dozen books. I'm fascinated by her life, and want to read more about her.
When I was in graduate school, I had the pleasure of hearing the personal testimony of a Russian physicist named Alex at a Fellowship of Christian Engineers meeting. He worked in the Soviet nuclear arms program for many years. Like yourself, he had virtually no contact with anyone who believed in God. He said that one day while he was in college, he was walking through a wooded area when he became aware of God's prescence. Never before had he even considered that there may be a God. Anyway, he kept it to himself for a long time. When the Soviet Union fell, he happened to come across some American missionaries in a train station. When he heard them speak of Jesus, and was given a Bible, he immediately recalled the experience he had in the woods that day. He told us that it felt like the pieces of a puzzle had been put together for him, and today he ministers to Russian emigrants in America.
I know several people that struggle with faith in God, and they talk of how hard it is to believe sometimes. It sounds like Bono's dad was like this. I myself have a very firm belief that God exists, and Jesus was God in the flesh, but that doesn't mean that I have all the answers. I still grapple with other issues. But if you've felt God's prescence in a clear way, accept it for the gift that it is. No one can take that away from you.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I can truly say that this thread has been rescued from what it was becoming. At last there seems to be some helpful and amicable dialogue going on. I'm silently keeping up with the conversation b/w 80s and Stars. I just hope the two of you can start talking about the same thing. This thing called communication can be difficult some times.
"Bono: In Conversation" is ESSENTIAL reading if you want to know the current state of Bono's faith. I found it amusing that he was constantly directing the conversations in a spiritual direction. At some point, I was expecting Michka to tell him that this was not supposed to be a book on theological discourse.
2Hearts said:In the situation with your father, I noticed that there were 3 of you praying for your dad...
melon said:
Believe me or don't believe me, but Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have more in common than we'd like to believe.
MrsSpringsteen said:and believe me or don't believe me -I was actually taught that in a Catholic college