joyfulgirl
Blue Crack Addict
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2001
- Messages
- 16,690
Look, I think one of the main points of this discussion is that it doesn't matter what Bono intended--each listener's interpretation is valid. Where we seem to disagree is that Niceman said something to the effect (sorry, I'm not going to go back through these long posts to find the exact quote) that it's fine if you want to read Twilight as gay but that in his opinion that is not obvious to most people and therefore it's something one has to look for, while his interpretation of it being more of a coming of age thing is the more obvious interpretation. So in a sense he's saying, as I understand it and please correct me if I'm wrong, "all interpretations are valid, but mine is more valid because it's more obvious to most people." That is where I flatly disagree and Irvine has IMO very eloquently argued exactly why the gay interpretation is as obvious as the other one if one is aware of gay culture [edit] or even they aren't but have had some kind of experience that would clue them in.
If simply reading the lyrics at face value without looking for hidden symbolism, one sees that a man and a boy (young man) are meeting in the shadows. What exactly do men do when they meet in the shadows? Smoke cigarettes? Plan a robbery? Tell dirty jokes? Eat a sandwich? "Shadows" to me obviously implies something illicit and due to my own knowlege of "cruising" in gay culture, my interpretation was glaringly obvious to me. And I don't buy the suggestion that only people who are gay or who have gay friends would see that. Many many many young straight men in this world have been approached by older gay men whether they talk about it or not. They may not be aware of cruising in gay culture but they may have had an experience of being approached, even if nothing happened, so that in reading that line they would pretty much get it. I wouldn't be surprised if everyone here knows someone who has had that expereince whether they know it or not, just like everyone knows a woman who has been raped whether they know this about her or not. So to say that that could not be obvious to many people IMO is just not true. However, if gay culture is not part of your realm of knowledge and experience, or if you have never been approached, then of course you would find a different meaning. But it's really insulting for anyone to say that "of course it's fine if you see it that way but it's a stretch." I can see exactly why someone would see it as a coming of age analogy and I feel both interpretations are equally valid. I'm sure it would not be well-received if I said, "sure, your interpretation is valid but only because you need to see it that way--it's not really there but you've decided it is and that's fine."
Whew. Okay, I think I'm done. For now.
If simply reading the lyrics at face value without looking for hidden symbolism, one sees that a man and a boy (young man) are meeting in the shadows. What exactly do men do when they meet in the shadows? Smoke cigarettes? Plan a robbery? Tell dirty jokes? Eat a sandwich? "Shadows" to me obviously implies something illicit and due to my own knowlege of "cruising" in gay culture, my interpretation was glaringly obvious to me. And I don't buy the suggestion that only people who are gay or who have gay friends would see that. Many many many young straight men in this world have been approached by older gay men whether they talk about it or not. They may not be aware of cruising in gay culture but they may have had an experience of being approached, even if nothing happened, so that in reading that line they would pretty much get it. I wouldn't be surprised if everyone here knows someone who has had that expereince whether they know it or not, just like everyone knows a woman who has been raped whether they know this about her or not. So to say that that could not be obvious to many people IMO is just not true. However, if gay culture is not part of your realm of knowledge and experience, or if you have never been approached, then of course you would find a different meaning. But it's really insulting for anyone to say that "of course it's fine if you see it that way but it's a stretch." I can see exactly why someone would see it as a coming of age analogy and I feel both interpretations are equally valid. I'm sure it would not be well-received if I said, "sure, your interpretation is valid but only because you need to see it that way--it's not really there but you've decided it is and that's fine."
Whew. Okay, I think I'm done. For now.
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