What are your thoughts on school vouchers?

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

Flying FuManchu

New Yorker
Joined
Oct 13, 2000
Messages
3,185
Location
Used to live in Chambana. For now the Mid-South.
When I look at today's educational system (especially public high schools) and hear stories from high school kids, it makes me rethink the idea of school vouchers. I'm wondering what people think in general. Something worth trying b/c a lot of public schools, especially in the inner city seem like a lost cause.
 
I don't know...I just don't feel like giving up on inner city public schools is the right thing to do. I don't know what the right thing is, but I don't think its vouchers.



We had a pretty heated discussion about vouchers in my English class earlier this semester. Believe it or not it got more personal than the discussion over whether or not creationism should be taught in schools :huh:
 
I don't understand the point of a voucher system. It seems like in the end, it will just be more costs/taxes in order to administer such a system.

Why not just let parents choose which school their kids attend?
 
U2democrat... I've also thought the same (dislike towards the idea of giving up on entire schools so that a select few or many are able to obtain opportunities not afforded to them in public schools) but I also think about how many kids with the potential to do well in school and are extremely intelligent are hindered by the culture/ environment that they are studying in. How much potential has been lost b/c of peer pressure and an anti-education culture that seems to be prevalent in inner-city public schools.

I dunno about you but I've been a student in both public schools(city school and later nice suburban school) & private schools (nice college prep school) and the idea of separating the "smart" kids from the "apathetic/ slow" kids is nothing new and seemingly done everywhere. Giving the "smart" kids the opportunity to progress faster while the other kids get to progress at their own pace is what I look at school vouchers being similar to in theory.
 
Last edited:
Harry Vest said:
What exactly are "school vouchers" - I'm from Canada and to my knowledge we don't have them here.

Wikipedia definition:

"An education voucher, commonly called a school voucher, is a certificate by which parents are given the ability to pay for the education of their children at a school of their choice, rather than the public school to which they were assigned."
 
Flying FuManchu said:
Giving the "smart" kids the opportunity to progress faster while the other kids get to progress at their own pace is what I look at school vouchers being similar to in theory.

I believe people who support vouchers would like them to be available to different types of students; not just the "smart" kids.
 
WildHoneyAlways said:


I believe people who support vouchers would like them to be available to different types of students; not just the "smart" kids.

That's probably true, but IMO but there probably be some sort of standard and my assumption (and again I'm not acting like I know everything about school vouchers) is academic achievement has to come into play otherwise who gets to qualify for the voucher?
 
WildHoneyAlways said:


I believe people who support vouchers would like them to be available to different types of students; not just the "smart" kids.

Yeah. I guess my understanding was that part of the point is so that parents whos kids are currently forced to go to the crappy schools would have that choice. I thought it was to benefit those who DON'T already have enough money to afford a good private school. Instead, they could send their kid to a good public school.

But I still don't understand the concept of the actual voucher. Wouldn't it be easier to just say, OK, people can enroll where they want rather than have the government pass out documentation that says the same thing?

Either way, I don't think academic achievement should have any part in it. If it did, the vouchers would never reach the people they are intended to help - kids stuck at crappy schools. They want to change schools so that they can do better academically, not because they already are.
 
Since public schools in the US are funded primarily by local property taxes, I don't know how you could really implement an "everyone just enrolls where they want" system. It seems like you'd wind up with whichever (public) schools are locally perceived as The Best being overcrowded with students they may not even be getting funding for. The whole idea of the voucher is that whatever tax money the student's neighborhood school would've received to educate them (based on per capita averages relative to the school's tax base) gets transferred to a school they freely chose instead, sort of with like a food stamp--you "pay" your new school with the voucher, which they then submit to the government to get their due funds to educate you. Thus, "good" schools are rewarded with more funding while "bad" schools are punished by losing it, applying market forces to education which (so the thinking goes) will result in "bad" schools either being forced to clean up their act or go under.

In practice though, in most places in the US that have a voucher sytem, most students use them to go to a private school, not a public one, with their families making up any difference out of their own pockets. Also, the number of vouchers available is kept quite small relative to the total number of students, so as to prevent overcrowding and/or mass abandonment. So far as I know, the main criteria for voucher eligibility with all current US voucher programs is financial need, not academic merit. However, since private schools aren't obligated to take students they don't want and public schools have enrollment limits, in practice I suppose merit (i.e., previous academic record) probably does enter into it somewhat.
Flying FuManchu said:
How much potential has been lost b/c of peer pressure and an anti-education culture that seems to be prevalent in inner-city public schools.

Giving the "smart" kids the opportunity to progress faster while the other kids get to progress at their own pace is what I look at school vouchers being similar to in theory.
The problem with this is, a "prevalent anti-education culture" shouldn't be any child's "pace." I don't know about where you live, but everywhere I've ever lived, it's not like there's (e.g.) one high school with a great rep for vocational ed, another with a great rep for humanities education, another with a great rep for sci/tech preparation, and another one that's great for artsy kids or whatever. Basically there are just one(s) that are considered Good, ones that are considered merely OK, and ones that are considered Bad, and pretty much all parents know which is which. And almost invariably, this stratification is directly linked to the socioeconomic demographic of the school in question. Good schools are Good because they're in well-off areas with predominantly white-collar and professional families who provide their kids with lots of educational and achievement-oriented-social stimulation outside of school; Bad schools are Bad because they're in poor areas with predominantly blue-collar and undereducated families who can't or don't offer their children those kinds of resources. So I find it hard to be optimistic that "market forces" alone would suffice to transform that in most cases; education just isn't a discrete "product" in that hard-and-fast sense. The alternative, I guess, would be to have some sort of separate-the-academically-challenged-out-early-and-stick-'em-in-vocational-ed type system, more like what some European countries traditionally had; but actually most of them are increasingly moving away from that approach nowadays, as the nature of what it takes to make a living in an increasingly post-industrial economy changes.

It's hard not to be hypocritical about this topic for most of us, though--I doubt there are many in here who went to primarily poor, inner-city public schools, or would want their own children to go to them. :shrug: I guess in my case, I'm not so much bothered by the thought of giving academically high-achieving poor students the opportunity to leave for a better school--in fact, I benefitted from just that myself in high school, though it was through scholarships, not vouchers--as I am by the thought that this in and of itself is seen as a "solution" to the problem of "Bad" schools. Because what about all the other children who get left behind--because their grades weren't that great, or their parents make just a few dollars too much to qualify for a voucher, or there weren't enough vouchers to go around, or whatever?

It just sounds more like fatalistic triage than transformative competition.
 
Last edited:
In favor.

Anything to breakup the current government run/union-dominated/mired in bureaucracy monopoly we now have and introduce some much needed competition into our education system.
Competition makes services better and provides choice. We're all pro-choice when it comes to children, right?
 
Against -- at least in its current form. There are a limited number of vouchers available, and they often don't come even close to covering the full cost of tuition and fees at the private schools that accept them. The more savvy and wealthier families have access to them, and take their kids and their resources out of the public schools. Kids with less savvy parents --or parents with less flexible schedules who are unable to fill out the forms, locate the schools that accept the vouchers, get their kids through the private school admission process, and make up the difference between the what the vouchers cover and what attending the private schools cost -- often don't have access to the programs.
My solution would be to change the way that public schools are funded in this country. Local funding, often based on property taxes has led to huge differences between schools, and even between school systems. It doesn't make sense to me that one public school lacks basic essentials, and another school a few miles away has wonderful facilities and resources -- that are only available to the students who are economically blessed to live in that zone, county or neighborhood.
Oh -- I attended so-called "inner city" schools, and have worked in several more, so I tend to be rather opinionated when it comes to public education in this country.
 
DILETTANTE said:
Against -- at least in its current form. There are a limited number of vouchers available, and they often don't come even close to covering the full cost of tuition and fees at the private schools that accept them.

So, you could use a voucher for a private school? Then how are they even remotely fair if not every student gets one? I don't think my parents would be too pleased at all if some of my sister's peers got government money to attend a private school while they still have to pay $7500 a year. An no, my parents are not rich. They've sacrificed pretty much everything so we could attend good schools (the public ones here are disgusting and laughable, and it's no fault of the teachers).
 
Anyone know why it is that local property taxes account for such a large percentage of public school funds in the US? So far as I know, we are just about the only country that does it this way.
 
[So, you could use a voucher for a private school? Then how are they even remotely fair if not every student gets one? I don't think my parents would be too pleased at all if some of my sister's peers got government money to attend a private school while they still have to pay $7500 a year. An no, my parents are not rich. They've sacrificed pretty much everything so we could attend good schools (the public ones here are disgusting and laughable, and it's no fault of the teachers). [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes. As I understand the programs -- at least in this area -- vouchers can -- and usually are-- used for private schools. It is probably not a coincidence that the most reasonably priced schools are often "faith-based" -- including Catholic schools.
As to the issue of using government money for a private school, welll, on the one hand, that's already happening for some special education students, where the public schools can't meet their needs. Again, this option is often most readily available to the more system-savvy parents with more resources.
On the other side, most private schools do have some scholarship students -- so, one way to view the voucher is that it's the money that would have been spent to educate the student in public school, that can move with the student as a voucher to be spent on tuition at a private school. The issue that might displease your parents is the limited number of vouchers -- since your sister might not get one, while the student sitting next to her in class might.
 
yolland said:
Anyone know why it is that local property taxes account for such a large percentage of public school funds in the US? So far as I know, we are just about the only country that does it this way.

My response to this is very cynical -- so I hope others add their knowledge of these issues into the mix.
I think that using property taxes to fund public schools has been a way of maintining more local control over local schools -- a critical issue for many. It has also helped to maintain the status quo (sp?). People who can afford to live in "good" neighborhoods can afford to fund "good" schools -- that people who live in other neighborhoods cannot attend. While this may not have been the goal, it has had the result of maintaining many types of segregation -- including racial segregation and economic segregation -- in some areas to some extent. The result has often been that individuals who have the least resouces can only attend schools that have the least; and those who have the most resources get to attend schools that are better funded (more expensive properties and/or higher property taxes + more available funds).
If we think of all Americans as "created equal" -- it would seem to follow that educational opportunities and resources should be equally distributed, particularly for primary students. That's not the case.
 
DILETTANTE said:
The result has often been that individuals who have the least resouces can only attend schools that have the least; and those who have the most resources get to attend schools that are better funded (more expensive properties and/or higher property taxes + more available funds).

This isn't necessarily true. The school where I teach is in a "well-off" area. We're one of the most cash-strapped schools in the district because we don't receive any direct federal funding. Other "poor" schools, in neighborhoods with rental units and motels as student residences, receive tens of thousands of dollars per year in federal funds.
 
Here is a question which I hope doesn't come across as flippant because I am truly curious - how much does money matter in the efficient delivery of education?

If we look at scores in areas like math and science (little point to compare language scores with countries where English is not the mother tongue), the US ranks rather poorly. And in fact, is often below countries which are substantially poorer and whose students attend schools with less funding, worse facilities, teachers who are paid peanuts in comparison, etc. So is money the big problem here at the end of the day or are there deeper and more complicated issues that explain the score discrepancies?
 
anitram said:
So is money the big problem here at the end of the day or are there deeper and more complicated issues that explain the score discrepancies?

Yes.

And no.

More money here would mean smaller class sizes (instead of my 35 in two grades), which would mean more effective instructional delivery.


Score discrepancies are more affected by parental participation than any politician wants to acknowledge. The parents who work with their kids on organizational skills, who read to and with their kids, who limit their kids' TV access, who monitor their kids' activities, who help with homework, are going to have kids who have a better chance to succeed.
 
DILETTANTE said:
Yes. As I understand the programs -- at least in this area -- vouchers can -- and usually are-- used for private schools. It is probably not a coincidence that the most reasonably priced schools are often "faith-based" -- including Catholic schools.

Which is why many parochial schools aren't all that keen on vouchers. If they take public money, they have to admit the public. If they stay private, they can choose who they admit based on any criteria they set.

If they start having to admit the public, I think you'll see their rarified achievemant start to falter. :wink:
 
martha said:
Score discrepancies are more affected by parental participation than any politician wants to acknowledge. The parents who work with their kids on organizational skills, who read to and with their kids, who limit their kids' TV access, who monitor their kids' activities, who help with homework, are going to have kids who have a better chance to succeed.
Yeah, that's why I suggested a link between that (i.e. parental influence) and the socioeconomic demographic of the school earlier.

So do the "poor" schools in your area have better facilities, then? and/or better academic reputations? Because if so, then your area is nothing like anywhere I've ever lived.

It seems like you'd need a lot more than "tens of thousands" to make up for having an impoverished tax base, though--the national average annual expenditure per student for public schools (regardless of funding source) is around $8500, I believe. I've no idea what the average would be in CA. Although--isn't CA one of those states where state funding actually accounts for a greater share than local?
 
yolland said:
So do the "poor" schools in your area have better facilities, then? and/or better academic reputations? Because if so, then your area is nothing like anywhere I've ever lived.
No. They do terribly on the tests that determine everything; mostly because the tests are given in English and most of the students aren't yet fluent in English. My school is second from the top in our district; our EL population can be counted on one hand. The poorer schools have better computer labs than we have, but not better test scores.



yolland said:
I've no idea what the average would be in CA. Although--isn't CA one of those states where state funding actually accounts for a greater share than local?
I don't know the answer to this. I do know that CA is low on the list of per student funding, but I don't know where we are now. One of my state's problems was/is good old Proposition 13, which cut property tax revenue by bazillions of dollars, which in turn has affected school funding here for decades. I can't say too much though; one of the reasons we can afford to live in our house is the low property tax base we inherited from Steve's dad.
 
DILETTANTE said:


As to the issue of using government money for a private school, welll, on the one hand, that's already happening for some special education students, where the public schools can't meet their needs.


Interesting. Around here, it's dead opposite. While the Christian high school scores better than ALL of the schools (public and private) on the tests designed to prove that public schools can score as well, the special ed programs are very small and are desperate for funding. Most kids with specialized needs are recommended to the public schools, since they get plenty of money from the gov't whereas we get none. Also, public school teachers and aids make 2-3 times as much. Some of my high school teachers were qualified to be college professors, but only make 24K/yr. There are private donors, but they like their money to go towards big projects, like The Richard and Helen de Vos Center for Arts and Worship (aka The CAW, the highschool's new auditorium and dance studio).



On the other side, most private schools do have some scholarship students -- so, one way to view the voucher is that it's the money that would have been spent to educate the student in public school, that can move with the student as a voucher to be spent on tuition at a private school.

Hmm....none of the private schools here have any sort of scholarship. Some of the churches help their members, depending on the church you belong to and/or your need. So, it's still really not fair to say "the money that would have been spent...." because on one side, the government is giving a handout and on the other side, parents are taking on second and third mortgages and working overtime because the government assumes they are "rich" enough to pay the eight grand on their own.

Personally, I don't think any parent should feel they have no choice than to send their kids to a private school. That's how mine felt. They would've been happy sending us to the public schools and saving religion for the home and church, but the public schools here are terrible academically and have become downright dangerous.

I think the main problem is that many parents just don't care. It's not my place to judge or make assumptions about why they don't care, but handing someone a piece of paper worth 9k so their kid can go to a good school is not a great way of getting them involved and invested in their child's education.
 
[ Most kids with specialized needs are recommended to the public schools, since they get plenty of money from the gov't whereas we get none. ]


I may have worded this poorly. I think that students in private schools are eligible for at least some special education services -- but in practice, I have no idea how this works. What I was referring to was parents who establish that the school system cannot meet their child's educational needs, may end up getting public funds to pay for their child's education in a private school setting. An example of this would be a student with severe physical or emotional handicaps who needs a very specialized setting.



.[ So, it's still really not fair to say "the money that would have been spent...." because on one side, the government is giving a handout and on the other side, parents are taking on second and third mortgages and working overtime because the government assumes they are "rich" enough to pay the eight grand on their own.


Personally, I don't think any parent should feel they have no choice than to send their kids to a private school. That's how mine felt. They would've been happy sending us to the public schools and saving religion for the home and church, but the public schools here are terrible academically and have become downright dangerous.

I think the main problem is that many parents just don't care. It's not my place to judge or make assumptions about why they don't care, but handing someone a piece of paper worth 9k so their kid can go to a good school is not a great way of getting them involved and invested in their child's education. [/B][/QUOTE]


I'm not sure how to address a lot of what you've said. Every child has access to a free public school education. The option(s) available may not be ones that a parent wants -- but the options are there. So if a parent chooses a private school option for their child -- this is a choice. And I would assume that the parents making this choice have decided that it's worth the sacrifices that they make.
I'm not sure what you mean by your assumption that "many parents just don't care". Who are you talking about -- and what are you basing this on? I wouldn't assume that a parent who lacks property to mortgage, or transportation to get a student to an out of zone school doesn't "care" -- or doesn't have the same concerns about violence or class size, or educational philosopy that a parent with more resources to access a wider array of options might have.
 
Sorry I messed up the "quoted" bits from Liesje's post. If it's unclear, let me know, and I"ll try to untangle it.
The second paragraph is my response to Liesje's comments in the first one. And the last paragraph is my response to the bracketed bits -- quotes -- that preceed it. Again, sorry. I'm kinda new at this.....
 
DILETTANTE said:
I may have worded this poorly. I think that students in private schools are eligible for at least some special education services -- but in practice, I have no idea how this works. What I was referring to was parents who establish that the school system cannot meet their child's educational needs, may end up getting public funds to pay for their child's education in a private school setting. An example of this would be a student with severe physical or emotional handicaps who needs a very specialized setting.

I don't have any problem with children who have special needs getting extra funds or preferential treatment. Like I said, at least where I live, the public schools system has access to WAY more money and resources, so extra funding for these kids isn't even necessary since the public school is already free The private school's special ed program isn't nearly as good, so no public school kid would want or need funding to get into the private school's program.

Every child has access to a free public school education. The option(s) available may not be ones that a parent wants -- but the options are there. So if a parent chooses a private school option for their child -- this is a choice. And I would assume that the parents making this choice have decided that it's worth the sacrifices that they make.

Of course every child does, but the point is that what many kids do have access to pretty much sucks. If I had gone to the public high school, I would've been forced to attend a HUGE over crowded school where the passing rate is 50% and that's even WITH the insanely easy grading scale. This school has had many, many instances of violence on- and off-campus. Just last month a kid pulled out a gun at school. It's gotten to the point where education is not even the main issue, it's safety. I don't think parents should have to choose between public and private education based on safety.

If kids are going to be forced into which schools the government allows them to attend, there should be more than one choice.
 
Liesje said:


If kids are going to be forced into which schools the government allows them to attend, there should be more than one choice.
:up:

There's also charter schools in some areas. Still publicly funded but freed of some of the regulations and bureaucracy endemic to our public school system. And held accountable for their results...what a concept.
 
INDY500 said:
:up:

There's also charter schools in some areas. Still publicly funded but freed of some of the regulations and bureaucracy endemic to our public school system. And held accountable for their results...what a concept.

Not all charter schools are successful. Many are, of course, but there are more than a few with some serious issues.
 
DILETTANTE said:
I think that students in private schools are eligible for at least some special education services -- but in practice, I have no idea how this works. What I was referring to was parents who establish that the school system cannot meet their child's educational needs, may end up getting public funds to pay for their child's education in a private school setting. An example of this would be a student with severe physical or emotional handicaps who needs a very specialized setting.

Federal law requires the local education agency (LEA) to provide special education services for anyone who needs them from ages 3 to 21. If a private school is unable to meet the needs of these students, the LEA must provide the services. On the other hand, some kids have needs that cannot be met in a public school setting. Federal law requires that the LEA contract with a private school that can meet those needs. This comes out of the public school district's funds. Of course, the federal government requires it, but doesn't fund it, no matter what the cost. :|
 
martha said:


Not all charter schools are successful. Many are, of course, but there are more than a few with some serious issues.

No doubt. The same can be said of any enterprise I suppose. If they aren't fulfilling the intentions of their charter then they should be closed.
Besides providing choice, I think what I like most about charter schools is their ability to fire inept teachers. All but impossible in public schools is it not?
 
Back
Top Bottom