Irvine511 said:
coemgen, you know i think you're a great guy, but i think you misunderstand the situation i'm trying to present.
is this God you speak of not keeping Hindus out of heaven? if there's only one way, as you say, and a Hindu might grow up unexposed to Jesus, or, due to the highly understandable fact that said Hindu is from a different culture and is as predisposed to think of his religion as "right" or at least natural in the same way that you, due to culture, are predisposed to think of your religion as "right," then is not this Hindu, who might be as moral and virtuous a human being as one could ask, being kept out of this understanding of heaven you have by forces beyond his control?
aren't you essentially preaching a colonialist/"white man's burden" message -- it's the christian way or else?
ultimately, isn't it *your* fault as a Christian if someone goes to hell (or whever) because they are Jewish, or Buddhist, or Muslim, or Hindu? after all, you haven't converted them, so shame on you?
another thing is occuring to me: i dont see the logic of one man having to die so that we can "go to heaven." what happened to the billions of people who were around before Jesus? the cavemen? the ancient Egyptians? did they all just die and go to hell? if we are to take a more historical view of human history, where modern humans have been around for at least 65,000 years, doesn't it seem silly to think that for 63,000 of those 65,000 years no one went to heaven? how much sense does that make?
how does Christ dying redeem anyone? i'm looking for the logic behind it -- tell me how the system works, don't just give me a "because of A, then B." there seems to be a leap there. because we're bad, someone has to die? and then we're better? and to die in a terrible but not uncommon fashion for that time period?
Aw, thanks Irvine. I think you're a great guy as well. : ) Isn't this dialogue fun?
I would respond to your first paragraph by saying again that God's completely fair. Again, it's a justice thing. Because of his love though, he's doing everything he can to reach each of us. I've heard of it as he chases after us in love as if he's a hunter. Obviously, that's not meaning he's out to get us. : )
As far as what I'm sharing, I wouldn't call it a "White Man's burden" message. Again, don't confuse it with the Right Wing Christianity. First of all, I doubt Jesus was white. Second, Christianity is booming in many of the African nations, is thriving underground in China, has reached many Native Americans and is thriving in Spanish cultures. I have a good friend who, with his wife, risked their lives in a couple Asian countries by moving their with the goal of sharing Christ's love. There are more Christian martyrs today, than there were in Christ's time. Christians are everywhere doing everything they can to share Christ with people. I do my part, which is what I feel God is asking me to do.
As far as it being my fault if someone isn't "saved," I would say somewhat. It's not any Christian's duty to convert anyone. That's done by the Holy Spirit and by the person opening their heart to it. I can't do that for anyone. However, as Christians we are called to live as Christ did and share our faith. The thing here is we're each responsible for how we respond to God ourselves — you, me and those living on the other side of the world.
To answer your other question — a very good one I might add — we have to again consider God's passion for justice. (that's the theme for today).
If justice exists, then those who do wrong should pay. Right? We have laws here in America that say if someone shoots someone, or steals something, there's a price to pay. Those are human to human laws. Well, there are spiritual laws as well. Our teaching pastor at church describes sin as crimes against God. God is holy, pure, just and the essence of love. He created us out of love, and gave us free will out of love. We chose to give him the finger and do things our way and do things out of greed. This is contrary to his character. So basically, since the beginning of time, we've separated ourselves from God. Call it rebellion.
At the same time, if justice truly exists, there's a standard to be met. These are found in our laws today. One way to be a good citizen is to not speed. Basically, the law tells us how to be good. That's where we get our standard. In the Old Testament, we learn about the old law, which included the Ten Commandments, but also many other commandments. That was the standard of the day. Those who messed up would have to sacrifice a "spotless lamb" to be right with God. God also interacted with us humans differently back then. Realizing the law was too much to live up to and that we were failing miserably, God decided to give us a new way to be righteous or "right with God" or "good according to the law" or on the good side of justice. This would be Christ. The Bible tells us "the wages of sin is death." Blood has to be spilled. That's why the spotless lamb was sacrificed. Here's the cool part: God gave us the new way out, but stuck to the laws of justice. He's smart that God. God himself came down as man, lived a life like we do, but lived it perfectly, like we can't. He lived up to the holy standard. He was a spotless lamb. His death, was his sacrifice. He paid the penalty for us, but he could only do this by becoming fully man and fully God. Are you with me? (the triune nature of God confuses me too, I must say.) Through the resurrection, God conquered death, both spiritually and physically, therefore beating the consequences of sin. We can do this too by giving our lives to him. To do this, you have to die to yourself, and allow him to live within you. That's what a Christian is. Then when it's time to be held accountable for our sins, Christ's life is what's judged.
Before Christ's time, God interacted and reached out to us in different ways. Again, he always does his part of the relationship. It's us who fail. He's a fair judge so each of those before Christ were judged as fairly as we are. Out of love though, he made it easier for us to have access to him, or to have a relationship with him, through Christ. Why he waited or did this at the time he did, I can't tell you.
That's a minor issue though — the big issue is how each of us responds to it in our own lives.
Sorry this is longer than "War and Peace."
Again, we're dealing with a God of justice. If justice is the goal, then there has to be something to measure up to. We get this in Christ's life. By living a sinless life, which he was able to do so being both God and man, he set the standard. 
I've been a fan since Thomas came up (actually, since Bo Jackson came over.)
