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Old 08-15-2018, 09:32 AM   #841
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
If it makes you feel better, truly rich people hire people to help them avoid paying taxes altogether.
As they say, tax avoidance is not tax evasion.

You don't even have to be super rich to have tax structuring in place. It's fairly common among the professional upper middle class of a certain rung.
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Old 08-15-2018, 11:22 AM   #842
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I appreciate you actually acknowledging a need for a safety net and ditching the garbage “taxes are theft”.

I appreciate your charity and the fact that you do as much as you can, I truly do.

But charity will never be able to help the systematic poor or unhealthy. Period.

Charity doesn’t have the capabilities to consistently provide, charity will always ebb and flow according to their donations and need.

Charity is limiting not only due to fluctuations of money, but also due to lack of systems.

I have so much more, but have to run, I look forward to your responses.
"I appreciate you actually acknowledging a need for a safety net and ditching the garbage “taxes are theft”."

I don't think it's much of. concession to acknowledge the need for a safety net, vague as the verbiage is. It's a rather universally accepted premise. The question becomes a matter of methodology and ethics.

"The garbage 'taxation is theft...'"

Yet, we would never accept such coercive means of wealth accumulation from any other institution in society. It certainly shares more features with white collar theft than a private charity in this respect.


"But charity will never be able to help the systematic poor or unhealthy. Period."

...With private initiative crowded out by the popular assumption that the state will provide services X, Y, and Z. However, mutual aid has a significant history that preexisted the modern welfare state.


"Mutual aid was particularly popular among the poor and the working class. For instance, in New York City in 1909 40 percent of families earning less than $1,000 a year, little more than the "living wage," had members who were in mutual-aid societies... By the 1920s, at least one out of every three males was a member of a mutual-aid society."

https://mises.org/library/welfare-welfare-state

And Britain...

"[T]here are very few welfare roles now carried out by the British state that were not pioneered in the voluntary sector which, by the 19th century, had become huge and diverse. There were charities for the relief of poverty, the treatment of the sick, the housing of the working classes, the education of poor children, the assistance of the disabled, the training of the unemployed, and so on."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/143...are-state.html


"Charity doesn’t have the capabilities to consistently provide, charity will always ebb and flow according to their donations and need."

As opposed to a nation-state that generates trillions of dollars of debt to be dumped on the next generation?

"Charity is limiting not only due to fluctuations of money, but also due to lack of systems."

In the present system, yes, there may be a "lack of systems" - But historically as presented above, that hasn't always been the case.
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Old 08-15-2018, 01:17 PM   #843
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"I appreciate you actually acknowledging a need for a safety net and ditching the garbage “taxes are theft”."

I don't think it's much of. concession to acknowledge the need for a safety net, vague as the verbiage is. It's a rather universally accepted premise. The question becomes a matter of methodology and ethics.
You would think, right? But some have stated it's theft and no one is entitled to his money.


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In the present system, yes, there may be a "lack of systems" - But historically as presented above, that hasn't always been the case.
Yes, but could it happen in 2018? Do you really think there's a way that those who can't afford healthcare to be taken care of by charity?
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:59 PM   #844
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You would think, right? But some have stated it's theft and no one is entitled to his money.



Yes, but could it happen in 2018? Do you really think there's a way that those who can't afford healthcare to be taken care of by charity?
"You would think, right? But some have stated it's theft and no one is entitled to his money."

I would say that if it isn't theft, it certainly resembles it (more so than voluntary private charity). I used the term "white collar theft" so as not to confuse with a wacko holding you up to initiate an altercation you didn't expect.

In any case, ultimately incompatible with the Lockean-Jeffersonian notion of legitimate governance deriving from consent.


"Yes, but could it happen in 2018? Do you really think there's a way that those who can't afford healthcare to be taken care of by charity?"

There once existed a culture within medical providers to discount or serve free of charge those who couldn't afford the services needed. Some communities would ostracize you if you were a doctor who didn't do so. You can't reclaim that overnight. And a lot to roll back with regard to the Big Pharm-Big State alliance, and with the costs of complying with mandates, insurance, paperwork, etc.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:14 PM   #845
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if you intend to address a certain part of a person's post you can break up the quote function rather than quoting the entire post and then copy-pasting it in bit by bit, FYI.

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Originally Posted by Macfistowannabe View Post
"You would think, right? But some have stated it's theft and no one is entitled to his money."
like this.

Quote:
I would say that if it isn't theft, it certainly resembles it (more so than voluntary private charity). I used the term "white collar theft" so as not to confuse with a wacko holding you up to initiate an altercation you didn't expect.
you just need to type the [ quote] [ /quote] tags (without the space) around the beginning and end of each part you want to quote individually.

Quote:
In any case, ultimately incompatible with the Lockean-Jeffersonian notion of legitimate governance deriving from consent.
not saying this to sound like a jerk, it just seems like you might not know about this function and trying to help out as sometimes when you double-quote an especially long post it has the effect of making your post even longer when it doesn't need to be, and that makes it so that we have to needlessly scroll a lot more to read thru your posts. hope this helps.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:39 PM   #846
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Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
if you intend to address a certain part of a person's post you can break up the quote function rather than quoting the entire post and then copy-pasting it in bit by bit, FYI.



like this.



you just need to type the [ quote] [ /quote] tags (without the space) around the beginning and end of each part you want to quote individually.



not saying this to sound like a jerk, it just seems like you might not know about this function and trying to help out as sometimes when you double-quote an especially long post it has the effect of making your post even longer when it doesn't need to be, and that makes it so that we have to needlessly scroll a lot more to read thru your posts. hope this helps.
Will keep in mind. Thanks.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:42 PM   #847
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You would think, right? But some have stated it's theft and no one is entitled to his money.



Yes, but could it happen in 2018? Do you really think there's a way that those who can't afford healthcare to be taken care of by charity?
BVS, besides your platitudes that it's "garbage", explain to me your rationale. Before 1913, the United States had no income tax. We still had roads, schools, etc.

Explain to me how "property taxes" are not government theft. You can own your property, but never REALLY own it. A bit Orwellian, wouldn't you say? Explain how "capital gains" taxes are not theft. We will "punish" you for having assets by forcing you to give some of it to "us" by taxing you again! How are "estate, or death taxes" not theft? You died, and want to pass on money to your heirs, we will will tax that money AGAIN!

Now I know this is the liberal form of government you want, BVS, and I have no assets, or wealth, so YOUR ideas would benefit me more, but I find them to be theft by government, yes. And completely against what out Founding Fathers wanted the Federal Government to be controlling.

And all of these arguments about "charity not providing enough" of a safety net, prove two things. In your opinion, rich liberals, or "elites" as we say, would not be as generous as their bleeding hearts would have us believe, or that, like I've said before , it's easy to spend other people's money. So most people who are pro BIG government, or pro socialism will hardly contribute anything at all through taxes, or FORCED compassion or giving.

That's not compassion, that's the definition or mindless virtue signaling to make yourself LOOK compassionate.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:51 PM   #848
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US Politics VIII

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfistowannabe View Post
"You would think, right? But some have stated it's theft and no one is entitled to his money."

I would say that if it isn't theft, it certainly resembles it (more so than voluntary private charity). I used the term "white collar theft" so as not to confuse with a wacko holding you up to initiate an altercation you didn't expect.

In any case, ultimately incompatible with the Lockean-Jeffersonian notion of legitimate governance deriving from consent.
So I’m curious, then what wouldn’t be theft? No governance and no taxes, or taxes but they have to ask you about every road they build and every fire they put out?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfistowannabe View Post
There once existed a culture within medical providers to discount or serve free of charge those who couldn't afford the services needed. Some communities would ostracize you if you were a doctor who didn't do so. You can't reclaim that overnight. And a lot to roll back with regard to the Big Pharm-Big State alliance, and with the costs of complying with mandates, insurance, paperwork, etc.
There once also lived cultures where the men went out to hunt, women cooked, and they all chipped in and helped each other build their shelters.
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:06 PM   #849
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https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...harity/284552/
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:10 PM   #850
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That's not compassion, that's the definition or mindless virtue signaling to make yourself LOOK compassionate.
says the person who insists on reminding strangers on the internet over and over again about how generously they give to charity despite never once having been asked.
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:30 PM   #851
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says the person who insists on reminding strangers on the internet over and over again about how generously they give to charity despite never once having been asked.
Hey, I think Jesus even had something to say about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 6:1-4
Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:46 PM   #852
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Originally Posted by Gzusfrk View Post
BVS, besides your platitudes that it's "garbage", explain to me your rationale. Before 1913, the United States had no income tax. We still had roads, schools, etc.

Explain to me how "property taxes" are not government theft. You can own your property, but never REALLY own it. A bit Orwellian, wouldn't you say? Explain how "capital gains" taxes are not theft. We will "punish" you for having assets by forcing you to give some of it to "us" by taxing you again! How are "estate, or death taxes" not theft? You died, and want to pass on money to your heirs, we will will tax that money AGAIN!
But we had taxes prior to 1913. And 1913 was reimposing of previous taxes.

So did you think those roads were built by magic, or do you think just some taxes are theft?

I agree some taxes are ridiculous and wish for true reform.

But you should really learn what your property taxes are for

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Now I know this is the liberal form of government you want, BVS, and I have no assets, or wealth, so YOUR ideas would benefit me more, but I find them to be theft by government, yes. And completely against what out Founding Fathers wanted the Federal Government to be controlling.

And all of these arguments about "charity not providing enough" of a safety net, prove two things. In your opinion, rich liberals, or "elites" as we say, would not be as generous as their bleeding hearts would have us believe, or that, like I've said before , it's easy to spend other people's money. So most people who are pro BIG government, or pro socialism will hardly contribute anything at all through taxes, or FORCED compassion or giving.

That's not compassion, that's the definition or mindless virtue signaling to make yourself LOOK compassionate.
Is this how you talk in real life?

State something, cram a bunch of words in the other persons’ mouth, state something, cram a bunch of words in the other persons’ mouth, rinse and repeat

So if those liberals were really as generous as they pretend how would charity be able to provide healthcare for all of those that truly can’t provide?
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:54 PM   #853
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those liberal doctors would work completely for free, of course. if they didn't, any expression of compassion or empathy for a fellow human being would automatically be just mindless virtue signaling. because obviously only christian conservatives have actual compassion and are capable of performing true acts of charity, after all.
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:57 PM   #854
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those liberal doctors would work completely for free, of course. if they didn't, any expression of compassion or empathy for a fellow human being would automatically be just mindless virtue signaling. because obviously only christian conservatives have actual compassion and are capable of performing true acts of charity, after all.


I think there was a study about that.
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:10 PM   #855
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i mean, Jesus even paid taxes
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:14 PM   #856
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I wish it was 1912 again. This country sucks now. Back in 1912 was when it was the best.
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:14 PM   #857
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Re: BVS

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So I’m curious, then what wouldn’t be theft? No governance and no taxes, or taxes but they have to ask you about every road they build and every fire they put out?
Under a "public option" (should you see a state-run service as best fit for these), voluntary taxation, endowments/donations, lottery ticket sales, and the like come to mind in order to fund what people are actually willing to pay for. Obviously, roads and firefighting make the list.

There is also contractual law that can fill the "no governance" void with enforceable terms, prearranged. Governance it is, just not by "government" as an institution with a monopoly privilege on coercion.

Private roads were actually a major industry in the 19th century. With today's technology, there's a lot of potential to innovate in this area of life. Instead of Congress and local governments fighting over whether to fix Road X or build Road Y to tease up more support for legislation, private competitors can fight for your business, and you end up not footing the roads in states you don't live in.

Firefighting would be prearranged under such a model, as part of a package deal (along with security/protection, sewer, gas, water, etc) in proprietary communities. Developers would use the block as fraternal purchasing power to gain the best deals they can. As opposed to state monopoly in such areas.

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There once also lived cultures where the men went out to hunt, women cooked, and they all chipped in and helped each other build their shelters.
Hunter-gatherer stuff. The Pre-political state.

Nothing wrong with thinking POST-political, and learning from the past.
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:21 PM   #858
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those liberal doctors would work completely for free, of course. if they didn't, any expression of compassion or empathy for a fellow human being would automatically be just mindless virtue signaling. because obviously only christian conservatives have actual compassion and are capable of performing true acts of charity, after all.
Witty man, LOL.

Even I think the virtue signaling charge gets a bit out of hand (though I also understand the irritation with "Hey, look how PC I can be!")
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:39 PM   #859
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:40 PM   #860
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Look, the irony of it is that I do think that my tax rate is too high, not because I am opposed to a social safety net but because I believe the bureaucracy is bloated, the public sector here is unrealistic in the long term (almost all job growth is in the public sector which is unsustainable and terrible for our economy in the long run, they need to get rid of defined benefit pensions because those are enormous liabilities imposed on society and plain irresponsible). Our highest marginal rate keeps getting higher and far left politicians run on "well you earn that much you can afford to pay a bit more." To what end? You can only squeeze the top 1, 2, 3% so much before they take their money elsewhere. Also bad for society.
^ Agreed. The realistic argument isn't about whether taxes in general are theft, or even if a progressive tax system is fair. Canada and America are beyond those questions.

The real fights are the rate levels, and where the tax revenue is actually going. Those are good fights to have.
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