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Old 11-17-2017, 08:48 AM   #581
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https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/financ...194334563.html


So many of those people are the same people who voted for Trump. That's truly sad, not "Sad!"
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Old 11-17-2017, 09:18 AM   #582
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US Politics IV

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Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
The reason why this place is more one sided than ever is because nobody has been able to present a case for Trump without turning into a white nationalist douche.

Funny how that happens. It's almost as if the man brings it out.



I have to agree.

It’s a U2 forum. People are going to lean left and be into social justice and, if they are Christian, are likely to be of a more liberal sort. Not always, but in general, so I can see how a conservative is going to feelnout umbered, especially when there really are a lot of smart people in here. I’m often a little surprised at how “centrist” I’m told I am — but I’m fine with that. This place has its own spectrum, so be it.

The “echo chamber” phenomenon is in part due to that, but also because anyone who is going to post about politics ona U2 forum is likely going to have strong opinions, firmly held, and is probably going to fight for them. That, and sometimes the loudest voices in here are also people who behave in exactly the same way when talking about U2. Or television. Or anything else.

So I’m not that sympathetic to people who feel unwelcome. Yes, we could be nice to newbies, everywhere, but It’s not like anyone should be treated differently because their opinions may be in the minority, nor do I think anyone wants a drum circle — people come here to argue and defend and challenge, and that’s the fun of it. I will say that as social media has evolved, this is no more of a place for liberal complaining, so to speak, but such is life in 2017.

In short, sure, it’s tough to be a conservative here (intellectually, and with stamina, since lots of people are going to come at you, and that’s exhausting), but, a few individuals aside who behave in the same way across the forum, I don’t think the vast majority of arguments cross any sort of lines and are based in good writing and research, and I think this most recent exchange of playground whining is an example of how FYM usually *doesnt* operate. I saw nothing unwelcoming in regards to political beliefs and everything in regards to well known personalities acting as they do, everywhere.
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Old 11-17-2017, 09:22 AM   #583
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What is the case for Trump? I'd like to know. It will be almost a year soon.
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Old 11-17-2017, 09:47 AM   #584
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What is the case for Trump? I'd like to know. It will be almost a year soon.


"Libturds Just hasznt given him a chance!"
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Old 11-17-2017, 09:52 AM   #585
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I loathe Trump. I'm not a Republican (don't even live in the US) and certainly would not vote for him. I work in international development so he's bad for me professionally and is the type of person I personally can't stand. But just sitting around whinging about him is not my idea intellectual rigour. I'd frankly rather see my own assumptions challenged.

Trump as a person and President is pretty much indefensible, so anyone coming here who tried to do that would have a rough time of it. And I think a conventional conservative would be in a tough place as well because traditional conservatism really isn't what Trump is. Trump has no ideology other than Trump. I don't know if the people who have come on here have tried to defend Donald Trump, or they're just simply conservatives. And I don't know if they're genuinely white supremacists, because I see that term and "fascist" thrown around pretty loosely (and the latter, mostly incorrectly) around here.

There was a study a while back which showed that people who tend to only speak with those who share a similar world view tend to lose their ability to debate effectively and some critical reasoning skills over time...because both of those skills, like any other, have to be exercised in order to be effective. If your discussion consists of "Trump sucks"..."yeah, Trump reallly sucks, plus he's a racist"..."agree, not only is he a racist, but he's a misogynist"...."that's right, and a fascist to boot!"...well, you're not really debating anything.

So yes, it's an echo chamber, and it's not really a place to discuss "US Politics". Political views have to be challenged and tested if they're to be valid. But we don't debate politics here. It's a place for progressives who happen to be U2 fans to dump on Trump and express their frustration. Maybe simply changing the thread title to something more reflective of what the thread actually is would better prepare any poor conservatives who happen to wander in here expecting anything like an open debate.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:01 AM   #586
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https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...irstrikes.html

This is a travesty.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:01 AM   #587
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It's also a polarizing political climate. Both sides love to throw around "echo chamber" as an insult to their opposition.

Polarization and living in an echo chamber are two totally different things that just seem the same. Nobody here only listens to what's said in here and takes that to justify or reenforce their views.

When I think of an echo chamber I think of topics like taxation and education, where views aren't opinions. You know, if we all agreed that a certain type of economics was *obviously* the best kind.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:11 AM   #588
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I think of an echo chamber as a place where the opinions you're putting out there pretty much sound like the opinions you're getting back...hence, an "echo".

I actually think there's probably a wider range of views (though mostly from the left) around here...say, Clinton style Dems and more radical Bernie style Dems...than we really see except on the margins. I'd love a "US Politics" thread to have a genuine discussion and debate about, well US Politics, with a few intelligent conservatives thrown in to keep everyone honest. But that's not really a debate I see in this thread...it's pretty much all Trump sucks all the time (again, that's what I've seen, maybe it's been different in the past). And when it's not Trump sucks it's Trump supporters are mostly fascists and white supremacists. I mean, that's not even good nonsense.

Again, I regard myself as a liberal, but I certainly enjoy be challenged by people to the left and right of me. And I'm actually convinced there are conservatives on this forum, but they take one look at this thread and say "nah. not worth it." Why would they want to put themselves through that? Why would they even want to show up when they know they're going in with the presumption that they're a fascist?

The irony is that places like EYKIW, which is derided by a lot of people, tend to have the greatest diversity of opinion, if only about U2 and their music.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:25 AM   #589
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I don't see it as an echo chamber so much as I don't see a medium of sound between the two views. They can't exist in harmony together. There isn't room for dialogue.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:26 AM   #590
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I think of an echo chamber as a place where the opinions you're putting out there pretty much sound like the opinions you're getting back...hence, an "echo".

I actually think there's probably a wider range of views (though mostly from the left) around here...say, Clinton style Dems and more radical Bernie style Dems...than we really see. I'd love a "US Politics" thread to have genuine debate about, well US Politics, with a few intelligent conservatives thrown in to keep everyone honest. But that's not really a debate I see in this thread...it's pretty much all Trump sucks all the time (again, that's what I've seen, maybe it's been different in the past). And when it's not Trump sucks it's Trump supporters are mostly fascists and white supremacists. I mean, that's not even good nonsense.

Again, I regard myself as a liberal, but I certainly enjoy be challenged by people to the left and right of me. And I'm actually convinced there are conservatives on this forum, but they take one look at this thread and say "nah. not worth it." Why would they want to put themselves through that?

The irony is that places like EYKIW, which is derided by a lot of people, tend to have the greatest diversity of opinion, if only about U2 and their music.
The problem I have with the idea of "intelligent" conservatism is that conservatism is inherently immoral. They're simply wrong about things. Any intellectual debate is ultimately going to be sourced to how willing a conservative is to cast aside different groups of people.

I do agree with you that there is a wider range of opinions on the left than one might think at first glance. I left this area of this board for quite a while precisely because I felt there was an unreasonable (and frankly, insulting) dismissive attitude towards those on the left from the liberals here.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:44 AM   #591
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The problem I have with the idea of "intelligent" conservatism is that conservatism is inherently immoral. They're simply wrong about things. Any intellectual debate is ultimately going to be sourced to how willing a conservative is to cast aside different groups of people..
There's certainly little "intelligent" (and in many way, conservative) about a huge chunk of the right today. The growing anti-intellectual wing of the GOP is a destructive force, for both the country and that party.

But I do think there's a place for principled conservatism in society and government. Progressives, in their best form, push us forward, but true conservatism puts a check on that, and kind of pause from going too far too fast, to ensure we keep the best of what has worked before is preserved. I'm not saying that's what the GOP is today...but it's ideally what it should be. Democrats, of course, have their own problems, and very significant ones, starting with the fact that big chunk of their party is as corrupt and controlled by special interests as the GOP.

In any event, you're quite right, the Republicans have written off large groups of people, and eventually, they're going to go the way of the Whigs if they don't get their act together. But even if that happened, you'd still have conservatives around. If the GOP went away the Democratic party would fracture as well (and it may anyway). There's simply too many competing interests there as well.
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:06 AM   #592
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So ... people complain that it’s an echo chamber, and decide that it’s not worth it to challenge the echo chamber and then complain about the echo chamber and how it’s not worth it to change it?

I totally get that. There’s only so many hours in the day. But you see the problem?
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:14 AM   #593
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Maybe you weren't around when a few of those Trumpists were posting, but I tried to engage them a number of times on specifics about the border tax and its budgetary implications, for example and never got anything other than silly Trumpian platitudes.

When roughly half the people who showed up to vote did so for a man with basically no ideology and no platform and who themselves clearly did not vote based on policies, then how is your response that this place is an echo chamber? Who are we to discuss with? Principled and reasoned conservatives, mostly of the fiscal variety, are generally horrified by him as well. The ones we got here posted about pizzagate (an opinion they STILL hold today) and denied racism is anything but "glorified hyporbole". Hardly people to rise to the occasion of in depth debate.
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:17 AM   #594
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I honestly dream of the day where we can actually get back to speaking about actual policy vs "this."

Just get rid of the national disgrace currently in office and we can get back to normal.

It seems as if we're currently here, though...

Leftist
Centrist
Huge void
White nationalists.

When those who used to fill the huge void want to come back to the grown up table and disavow Trumpism, then we can get back to having real discussions.
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:18 AM   #595
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Well, have there been any sustained voices from the right in this thread (in recent memory), that weren't white supremacists, or at least accused of being such?
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:18 AM   #596
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Principled and reasoned conservatives, mostly of the fiscal variety, are generally horrified by him as well.
Horrified, disgusted and embarrassed.
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:19 AM   #597
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Well, have there been any sustained voices from the right in this thread (in recent memory), that weren't white supremacists, or at least accused of being such?
I'm not a Democrat.
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:31 AM   #598
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Well, maybe Trump supporters just aren't interested in coming here b/c they know they'll be in the minority, and maybe they just don't have the chops (and facts) to engage effectively. And maybe never-Trump Republicans (and I know not all U2 fans are progressives) are just too disheartened to jump in the debate.

No matter what the reason, that does go back to this place being an echo chamber of basically Trump mockery. Maybe Irvin511 is right and that's all it can be given how polarised everything is now. And Headache is right that just the existence of Trump pretty much poisons all political discussion.

If I were a Republican, I'd be sick about what Trump is doing to my party. Especially given that he was a Democrat most of his life and he has no other ideology than greed and self-promotion. I mean, really, theyir party brand is basically being trashed by someone who isn't really one of their own. They're been conned and used. And it might be a good deal for them if they could at least get some of the legislative priorities out of it, but they can't even do that. The only thing saving the is that they're lucky in their enemies...i.e. that the Democratic brand is not much more popular (and mostly less popular) in huge parts of America. Why is that? That's a good discussion as well.

Anyway, there IS a big debate on the left that has nothing to do with Trump between the establishment left and the Bernie wing. I think that's a much more interesting discussion!
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Old 11-17-2017, 12:08 PM   #599
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The Democratic Party and its policies should be the right wing of this country. Everything to the right of that should be the fringe.
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Old 11-17-2017, 12:13 PM   #600
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Kinda like... the U.K. haha.
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