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Old 02-15-2002, 09:41 AM   #21
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Fine lets not police teh world, and then have all of you complain that the United states...the most powerful country in teh world, does nothing to bring stability to the world around them. You don't want us to be the world police fine, let saddam have kuwait, and Saudi Arabia, Let milosevic run free in eastern europe etc etc...personally...whenver I hear stuff like this..I sense inferiority complexes.
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Old 02-15-2002, 10:02 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V:
Fine lets not police teh world, and then have all of you complain that the United states...the most powerful country in teh world, does nothing to bring stability to the world around them. You don't want us to be the world police fine, let saddam have kuwait, and Saudi Arabia, Let milosevic run free in eastern europe etc etc...personally...whenver I hear stuff like this..I sense inferiority complexes.
Excellent post! So true!

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Old 02-15-2002, 10:16 AM   #23
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Thanks for some calm and nice replies.

Lemonite: I do agree that US get bashed if they interfere, AND if they don't, it's wrong and puts US in a tricky situation. And I guess you're right that they play the worlds police most of the time but some situations are more questionable then others. I have never had any concrete information before so I haven't interfered or had an opinion and therefor tried to be humble and not judging US by saying that they are the world police all the time but in this situation, when they are accusing people, private persons, not organisations, all around the world and don't let them know why or give them a chance to defend themselves, then it has gone too far.

DB: I know US is a great country. I've visited you several times and are looking forward to coming trips there because I will be back. And as you said your goods overweigh the bads.
You are also at war, but not against private people that has no idea why they are accused for something, they don't even know what they are accused of and they live their life far away from the center of this war and probably don't know more about it then the general person. And then they get the answer that you are put on the list just to prevent you from MAYBE doing something terroristic in the future. It's like putting someone in jail for a month just to let them see what it's like so they don't want to end up there, no other reason. You are not allowed to do that, at least not here.
It's this particular situation I'm questioning, NOT the entire US and it's laws.
-----------------------------------------

I'm actually wondering where this is going. What I mean is that next time it might be me, just because I know someone from Afgahnistan or someone that has been involved with the wrong organization. What has happened starts to shake my own security. Even if I know I haven't done anything, if someone can accuse me anyway and don't have to tell me why, that scares me and I am no longer living in a free country. You see where I am at, this is no longer just about terrorists.
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Old 02-15-2002, 10:35 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V:
Fine lets not police teh world, and then have all of you complain that the United states...the most powerful country in teh world, does nothing to bring stability to the world around them. You don't want us to be the world police fine, let saddam have kuwait, and Saudi Arabia, Let milosevic run free in eastern europe etc etc...personally...whenver I hear stuff like this..I sense inferiority complexes.
Thanks for reading my posts so well, and what I'm questioning. But please if you will post here, stay to the actual issue and try to read what's actually written. It seems like most others that has replyed sees what I'm at, american or not, except you.... But if you want to fight here for your country, I'm not the right person to fight with (and this thread is not the right either) because I like US and get personally offended by you accusing me of the opposite.... You don't defend your country very well.
I'm sorry but it's americans like you that make foreigners to dislike you. Humbleness? Heard of it?

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Old 02-15-2002, 10:53 AM   #25
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Did it ever occur to anyone that the rest of the world has more than one opinion, i.e. it's not necessarily the same people complaining when the US interferes as when they don't?
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Old 02-15-2002, 11:04 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klodomir:
Did it ever occur to anyone that the rest of the world has more than one opinion, i.e. it's not necessarily the same people complaining when the US interferes as when they don't?
Good point!

*wonders why I never figure this stuff out myself but find it so natural when someone else is saying it*

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Old 02-15-2002, 11:55 AM   #27
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I think that what upsets people is that the U.S. doesn't police the world simply because we are a deeply compassionate nation that is concerned about the well being of our fellow citizens of the world, but we police the world in places and in ways that directly benefit our economy. We police the world as arrogant bullies.

It's not that the non-Americans on this forum are expressing an inferiority complex (how insulting and arrogant to suggest that), but rather that they have observed (accurately in my opinion) the U.S.'s superiority complex. A perfect example was Bush's unilateral rejection of the Kyoto Protocol because it might harm the U.S. economy. He ranked the U.S. economy as being more important than global warming for God's sake. It was the epitome of arrogance. Absolutely shocking and disgusting. The World Trade Center was symbolic of the American economical ego and it is important that we Americans both recognize this AND support our leaders in addressing the situation, and support does not mean blind nationalism. This is not a fucking football game where we should sit there and go "rah rah rah America, our team rulz!" 9/11 was absolutely horrifying and I personally know people who died, but that does not mean I am going to be blind about it. On the contrary, my eyes are more open than ever.

I have drifted way off topic here, and yet, not so much in the bigger scheme. I have observed similar discussions on this forum for a long time, and I know where they go. I will be judged as unpatriotic and a bleeding heart liberal because that is usually the lamest response anyone can come up with. Fine. I know what's in my heart.

But whatever, I'm done with this--there is no point in even wasting energy this way. But all I want to say to MissZooropa is that not all Americans agree with U.S. foreign policy and the way in which the so-called war on terrorism is being handled, and I am sorry for how your questions have been received.

[This message has been edited by joyfulgirl (edited 02-15-2002).]
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Old 02-15-2002, 12:12 PM   #28
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Old 02-15-2002, 12:42 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl:
But all I want to say to MissZooropa is that not all Americans agree with U.S. foreign policy and the way in which the so-called war on terrorism is being handled, and I am sorry for how your questions have been received.
Thanks! Unfortunatly those americans don't make as much sound as those that defends everything about US, no exception.

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Old 02-15-2002, 01:05 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl:
but rather that they have observed (accurately in my opinion) the U.S.'s superiority complex. A perfect example was Bush's unilateral rejection of the Kyoto Protocol because it might harm the U.S. economy. He ranked the U.S. economy as being more important than global warming for God's sake.
[This message has been edited by joyfulgirl (edited 02-15-2002).]
jg, please study the Kyoto Protocol and America's reaction to it before you say things like this. Yes, America's economy was one of teh main reasons Bush rejected it.
But he also didn't liek the fact that China, one of the biggest violators of the environment, was not being called on to an hardly anything. There are other reasons, also.
But he's the President of the USA, for crying out loud. Not the president of The United Nations. His job is to look out for the people of the country he represents. Not France, not Russia. The USA. That is and should be his first and foremost consideration. If our economy really tanks, we are in dire straits.

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Old 02-15-2002, 01:28 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
jg, please study the Kyoto Protocol and America's reaction to it before you say things like this. Yes, America's economy was one of teh main reasons Bush rejected it.
But he also didn't liek the fact that China, one of the biggest violators of the environment, was not being called on to an hardly anything. There are other reasons, also.
But he's the President of the USA, for crying out loud. Not the president of The United Nations. His job is to look out for the people of the country he represents. Not France, not Russia. The USA. That is and should be his first and foremost consideration. If our economy really tanks, we are in dire straits.


I have, thanks. China's carbon dioxide emissions have fallen dramatically in the last decade (despite a growing economy) so they're working on it, while the U.S. emissions have risen. World ecology is more important than U.S. economy. The world ecology affects the people under the jurisdiction of The President of the United States for generations to come. But let's not worry about that, right? We'll be dead. Let our children's children worry about it.

[This message has been edited by joyfulgirl (edited 02-15-2002).]
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Old 02-15-2002, 02:24 PM   #32
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He is also working on something right now that is supposed to be a "compromise" to the agreement or something like that. I'm afraid I don't have any details though.

80'sU2is Best had a valid point in that he is the President of the US, and not the UN. Intrests at home come first, situation dictating of course, which is why he has the compromise.

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Old 02-15-2002, 02:28 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by MissZooropa:
Thanks for reading my posts so well, and what I'm questioning. But please if you will post here, stay to the actual issue and try to read what's actually written. It seems like most others that has replyed sees what I'm at, american or not, except you.... But if you want to fight here for your country, I'm not the right person to fight with (and this thread is not the right either) because I like US and get personally offended by you accusing me of the opposite.... You don't defend your country very well.
I'm sorry but it's americans like you that make foreigners to dislike you. Humbleness? Heard of it?


yeah humilty...comparing my country to communist china...please lecture me on humility. There are many ways to ask that question politely.

Americans like me making foreigners hate us?...getting personal are we?


[This message has been edited by Arun V (edited 02-15-2002).]
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Old 02-15-2002, 02:43 PM   #34
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Still trying to understand how the ecology does not qualify as an "interest at home" for the U.S.

[This message has been edited by joyfulgirl (edited 02-15-2002).]
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Old 02-15-2002, 02:45 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V:

yeah humilty...comparing my country to communist china...please lecture me.
Since you are the only one that has replyed without reading what I'm actually writing, in ANY of my posts and anyway decides to accuse me of things that are not true (which I've tried to explain to you before. Like for example I DON'T compare US with China, I said that DoctorGonzos quote sounds like something going on in China, not in US).

I begin to wonder what you have against me and why you even bother to reply in the first place if you are not interested in the subject.
Once again, americans like you are the ones that makes the people around the world hate america/ns.

I would still want you to answer the first question I asked you when you decided to hate me. Do you actually think what DoctorGonzo said about america is a civilized way to treat people?
You haven't said one creative thing in this discussion, only rude things about someone you don't know and things that aren't true. I also start to wonder that you maybe think that I'm actually have a point but don't want to admit it.

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Old 02-15-2002, 08:02 PM   #36
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The military court only applies to those from other countries who are terrorist! Not to your average US citizen. Evidence may have to be withheld in some cases because it could be a National Security risk if it were exposed. That may not be great for individual rights, but it is a small price to pay to protect closely guarded secrets about military operations and intelligence gathering capabilities that are at this very moment PREVENTING terrorist from killing thousands of people! This is not even close to being the first time the USA has done this in war and given the circumstances, it is perfectly legitimate.
Its a pity that the trampling of a few peoples "rights" is seen by many people here to be more important than Global security and the lives of millions of people or those that have already lossed friends and family.
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Old 02-15-2002, 10:24 PM   #37
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Again..
The USA sets a benchmark and standard for the rest of the world.
Most other countries thru out the world BUILD WALLS to keep their people from ESCAPING.
The USA is the only country that has to build walls to KEEP PEOPLE OUT.
People DIE everyday trying to reach OUR BORDERS and OUR SHORES.
Peole ARE NOT DYING trying to get to IRAQ,CHINA,CUBA RUSSIA or AFGANISTAN last time I checked.
As far as Arun is concerned I know the kid, and I dont think he was meaning to inflict any ill will to anyone in this thread.
He loves his country and what his country is about.Bono also likes Arun- taking The American Flag from him for THE FIRST TIME during the 3rd leg of Elevation Tour shortly after Sept. 11 and then starting a trend for the rest of the tour and into the Superbowl.

The same night Bono also dedicated a song to Arun "Starring At The Sun".

As far as war tribunals these are different from standard trials in the states.

War is war it was never said to be pretty.
Lastly the same 'rhectoric' that Osama has attempted to teach of hate and evil towards the USA and wealthier countries to his impressionable uneducated minons some here are echoing this sediment.
I ve heard Bono along w/the rest of the free world slam and denounce Bin Ladin for this cowardly practice several times.

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[This message has been edited by Diamond The U2 Patriot (edited 02-15-2002).]
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Old 02-15-2002, 10:43 PM   #38
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Doc Gonzo..when it's your city that's taken out with a dirty nuke..your going to wonder where those tribunals were. Also some of the intelligence collected may compromise future intelligence operations and thus may be warranted. Also..as for teh genva convention that only applies to armies that represent a nation....Al Qaeda soldiers do not represent any nation and thus..are not held to the terms geneva convention.

And if it's Americans like me that make people hate the US...so be it, but I never belittled the country you were from. Nor did I ever make a personal attack on you..I may have disagreed but I never said that your the kind of person that makes people hate (please paste nationality here). I never spit on your face or your flag..so dont' spit on mine
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Old 02-15-2002, 11:50 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V:
Fine lets not police teh world, and then have all of you complain that the United states...the most powerful country in teh world, does nothing to bring stability to the world around them. You don't want us to be the world police fine, let saddam have kuwait, and Saudi Arabia, Let milosevic run free in eastern europe etc etc...personally...whenver I hear stuff like this..I sense inferiority complexes.

The question is not about the United States being or not the police of the world. There is no country that shall be the police of the world.

Some people from different horizons have being critisizing the United States for acting or not since perhaps the end of World War I. "Where was the USA during the '30s when Europe needed them", "Why the US went in Viet-Nam", etc... The United States of America (read President Bush) officially auto-proclaimed themselves as the police of the world, judges of the world regardless different major opinions, like the European Union one.

The question should not be "Why the USA is doing this" or "Why the USA is not doing this". First of all, the USA is the only left mega-power on this planet. The country who reached first position (first position usually means on a economic theme [read : numbers]) dosen't need to go higher, but wants to keep itself there. Therefore, the USA is not acting as the world's police, but is acting in keeping its position intact.

As I said, no country shall be the world's police because when a country (here, the most significant example : the USA) is interfering/acts it is not as an act of pure generosit, but is a deliberate act of protecting and, important, gaining interests. In a way, the USA being the "world's police" is another way of keeping their position on the top and gaining more and more interests all over the world. It has nothing to do with generosity. The attacks on Afghanistan where surely an act of "primitive" defense, but the continuation of the "war" on terrorism is a war for interests. Nothing to do with the objectivity a police would have (in the perfect world).

The United Nations should be the world's "police", though it needs a major reform to be so. The Security Counsil is anti-democratic, serving the interests of 5 countries, but in the great majority, serving the interests of the USA and China, mainly, with the vetos. France and the UK are not using this veto a lot and Russia is balancing itself. The Security Counsil, controlling most of the UN's actions, is a relic of the end of WWII, wich was at the time good in a messed-up world, but wich is a relic right now.

So as I said, there is no world police right now, its "only" a matter of interests (economic / military / political). Was the USA actiong as a police by supporting the UCK in Kosovo ? The UCK was supported financially by the CIA and by Bin Laden's Al-Qaida. Al Gore was calling the UCK : "The UCK Organization is the reflection of America's generosity and democracy"... UCK was financed by the CIA and by Al-Qaida. And, while I'm in the subject, Al-Qaida and the whole Political Islamist movement was all build-up by the help of the USA (through the CIA) in order to struggle the USSR in the 80s, and in the 90s in order to struggle the ex-USSR Republics of the middle-east regions. Bin Laden, one of the greatest opportunist (here, opportunism isn't a quality) then turned against the USA and we know the rest of the story.

But Bin Laden is a muppet. He was treated in private hospitals, during july 200I, in the USA and could have been arrested. Bin Laden is a pretext, a terrible pretext, even though he is one responsible. The attacks were the pretext of the USA to invade Afghanistan (wich is understandable, but not suitable by the form of the way it was done, to me and to a lot of sociologist/politicans). Bin Laden is also the pretext for the USA to officially proclaim themselves the King of the World and Judge of the World. What the world learned from Sept. II ? That it needs to watch out for the USA and that it needs a reform and more guts to stand up and say "no" when it means so. What the USA learned from Sept. II ? Are you an ordinary citizen or are you a member of the economical elite or a member of the Government, or a member of the CIA ? Depends....

By the way, while were on the intense subject, this is not a bashing to anyone. I remarked that people on this forum like to thing they are getting bashed.
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Old 02-16-2002, 03:02 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
In the U.S, you can be sentanced to death without ever being allowed to see the evidence against you.


Originally posted by the HORROR:

At what point were you labotomized? Do you even think before you post crap like this?
Why is this crap? It is the truth at the moment. The military court that the US has installed to try the prisoners of war (or wait, the US refuses to acknowledge them as such and therefore to withhold them the rights of the Geneva Convention) can sentence persons to death. In addition, it can withhold 'evidence' from the defense even though a judgement will be made based on the evidence.

I think it appears you have been lobotomized, based on your reaction.

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