US 2008 Presidential Campaign/Debate Discussion Thread - Part Catorce!

[kellyahern]

I find it interesting that the "core conservative base" (as diamond puts it) of the Republican party is so angry about McCain.

Because it seems like out of all of the Republican candidates, he has by far the best chance against Hillary or Obama in the general election.



But that's just fine with me if they feel that way. Like MrsSpringsteen said, bring the popcorn.

[blueyedpoet]

Ooh, Obama wins Georgia and Huckabee wins WV.
Voter irregularity in California...I don't trust 'dem Clintons.

[deep]

Because two large states may not have their votes counted, Florida and Mich.

The Democrats could go into their convention without either candidate being able to get the delegate totals required.


These states will be very in the November election,
the only practical thing to do will be honor the voters of these states and award the delegates.

[Lila64]

Originally posted by Irvine511
Reagan thought that "born in the USA" was a patriotic song.

martha, is it time now?

[martha]

Yep.

[maycocksean]

I finally get deep's thinking on Obama winning. If it does come down to the electoral votes and we're talking about states like California or Florida, yes I could see Clinton winning.

But. Will the people that would have carried those states for Clinton, vote for McCain rather than Obama? I'm doubtful of that.

I believe that the irrational Hillary-hatred that infects a lot of people outside the Democratic party will hurt her. I find most hardcore Dems can't seem to fathom the deep distaste many people have for her. But then, again there is also this irrational McCain hatred on the right so now I'm wondering which irrational hatred will cost a candidate the election.

As far as choosing between Obama and Clinton, I think we've got to look past the hype and historic "first black man/first woman" stuff and look at the candidates themselves. That is the best way to honor their achievements as an African American and woman respectively. When people talk about voting for Clinton "because she's a woman and I'm a woman too" (or when blacks vote for Obama because he's black) it tells me we still have a ways to go in the journey towards full equality. I can't speak for women, but I can speak for myself as a black man--I want to be viewed first and foremost as a human being without the the adjective of race being a factor at all.

[joyfulgirl]

Originally posted by maycocksean

As far as choosing between Obama and Clinton, I think we've got to look past the hype and historic "first black man/first woman" stuff and look at the candidates themselves. That is the best way to honor their achievements as an African American and woman respectively. When people talk about voting for Clinton "because she's a woman and I'm a woman too" (or when blacks vote for Obama because he's black) it tells me we still have a ways to go in the journey towards full equality. I can't speak for women, but I can speak for myself as a black man--I want to be viewed first and foremost as a human being without the the adjective of race being a factor at all.

You are so right.

It was really exciting yesterday to see Democrats coming out of the woodwork to vote. Here in New Mexico, they came out in droves, record-breaking droves, in terrible weather! If that's largely because of Obama, then more power to him. It is very encouraging.

[MrsSpringsteen]

I was channel surfing last night about the results, and Glenn Beck was blowing a gasket. He said "well Romney's my guy, he's not like MY GUY but the only one I'd consider doing . Who needs a resolution to the writers' strike when you have this?

I think Romney won MA because it's a case of "devil you know", not to mention that candidates usually win home states. No way would they go for someone like Huckabee, too out there for MA GOP. Have no idea how McCain did in MA. I'm sure many Republicans in MA think Romney did a good job as governor, economically most of them were probably well off no matter how many other people suffered. And I suppose many like his switcheroo in views about gay rights and other issues, no matter how or why that came about.

[verte76]

Yeah, Obama won Georgia.

[MrsSpringsteen]

Did Limbaugh flip out again today? I hope so

Commentary: Conservatives' hatred of McCain makes no sense

By Roland S. Martin
CNN Contributor

(CNN) -- Listening to the irrational and hysterical response of conservatives to the presidential candidacy of Sen. John McCain would be laughable if it wasn't so serious.

During a debate Tuesday on CNN's "The Situation Room," conservative radio talk show host Glenn Beck said that the Republican Party has lost its soul, and McCain is indicative of that problem. He even said that if Sen. Hillary Clinton is the nominee, he will ignore McCain and cast a ballot for her.

Now, how silly is that?

Looking at the exit polls from Super Tuesday, McCain did well in some states with conservative voters, but he continues to run strong among moderates and independents. He clearly has a lot of work to do to shore up this important constituent in the party.

Let's be clear -- conservatives don't like McCain. But with conservatives one seat away from having a majority on the Supreme Court and the next president having the power to name up to three justices, do you actually think the folks who've fought two generations to re-take the Court actually want to see three Clinton jurists?

This, folks, is bordering on the irrational.

It all revolves around this desperate desire to find the new Ronald Reagan. He is the conservative icon. However as conservative Bill Bennett told me Tuesday night during one of our breaks in Super Tuesday coverage, Ronald Reagan wasn't always Ronald Reagan. His positions on taxes and gays evolved.

But don't tell that to conservative radio hosts like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Laura Ingraham, who have vowed to destroy McCain because he doesn't carry their water on every issue. Most issues? Yes. But they require their politicians to assume a fetal position, not to have a backbone and stand up to them when needed.

McCain is a guy who is fiercely pro-life. That's a pretty important issue for the conservatives. He is strong on the military and being a former Vietnam prisoner of war sure doesn't hurt. When Republicans got weak-kneed over the surge in Iraq, McCain stood tall and proclaimed that it will work.

The guy is a fiscal conservative who abhors the spending that has taken place during the presidency of George W. Bush and the Congress under Republican rule. Yes, he voted against the first two Bush tax cuts. But as he said, when you don't have spending limits with tax cuts, you blow up the federal deficit, and we are a weaker nation today because Republicans acted like a teenager with Mom and Dad's credit card.

What you will hear from conservatives is that he has co-sponsored legislation with several Democrats, including former Democrat-turned-independent Sen. Joe Lieberman. Of course, I crack up laughing because conservative talkers have a love affair with Lieberman yet they rip McCain apart for trying to actually accomplish something in a bipartisan manner.

What they seem to be most angry about is that McCain teamed up with Wisconsin Sen. Russ Feingold to move through a law that severely restricted the dollars in federal elections. This angered conservatives because they viewed the issue as a First Amendment cause. In fact, they really were upset about the GOP losing a major advantage over the Democrats when it came to fundraising. With that window narrowed by the law, they didn't want to see that advantage disappear. The U.S. Supreme Court struck down some parts of the law, but that still hasn't satisfied the money vultures on the right.

Lastly, there's the immigration debate.

In an effort to exercise leadership on a volatile issue, McCain chose not to be a demagogue and work out a compromise bill that would curtail the nation's unsecured borders, while figuring out a way to deal with the 12 million illegal immigrants already here. If you talk to the rabid conservative talk show hosts and their wild and angry listeners, their only option is to throw these immigrants out of the country. In former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, they have a very sympathetic ear.

But we all know the truth. That will never happen. Never.

So instead of drooling at such prospects, McCain worked with Democrats and some Republicans to offer a solution, which included making illegal immigrants learn English, pay a fine, force them to get in line for citizenship while targeting businesses that hire them.

Yet, the anger in America was too great. Whites, blacks, some Hispanics, conservatives, and even liberals couldn't stomach doing this first and not securing the borders.

Folks, McCain is a pragmatic leader trying to solve a difficult situation.

Conservatives will do anything to stop him, with some even suggesting -- especially evangelicals -- that they might run a third-party candidate.

Word to the wise: Shut up, suck it up and deal with it

If McCain wins the nomination, he is the best option the GOP has to stopping the candidacies of Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.

Roland S. Martin is a nationally award-winning journalist and CNN contributor. Martin is studying to receive his master's degree in Christian communications at Louisiana Baptist University, and he is the author of "Listening to the Spirit Within: 50 Perspectives on Faith." You can read more of his columns at http://www.rolandsmartin.com

[U2isthebest]

^^That's a great article, and it's completely true.

[phillyfan26]

Everything the article says is true, although it does skip over the base hating him because he's anti-torture.

[MrsSpringsteen]

Media Matters

Discussing exit polls during MSNBC's coverage of the February 5 presidential primary elections, NBC correspondent Lester Holt stated: "With the field of Democratic candidates reduced to two, we asked primary voters, 'Who would make the best commander in chief of the U.S. armed forces?' And here, it was [Sen.] Hillary Clinton [D-NY] who was the clear favorite. The first woman candidate with a serious shot at winning the presidency beat out her male rival -- look at these numbers -- 50 percent to 35 percent. Keep in mind, this at a time the nation is fighting on two fronts."

Holt was not the first person on an NBC show to focus on Clinton's gender when discussing the possibility that she would serve as commander in chief if elected in November. As Media Matters for America previously documented, while discussing Clinton on the June 24, 2007, edition of the NBC-syndicated Chris Matthews Show, host Chris Matthews asked Kathleen Parker, a syndicated columnist with the Washington Post Writers Group, if "being surrounded by women" makes "a case for commander in chief -- or does it make a case against it?" Matthews went on to say, "But isn't that a challenge, because when it comes down to that final decision to vote for president, a woman president, a woman commander in chief, will be an historic decision for people. Not just men, but women as well." Turning to New York Times reporter Elisabeth Bumiller, Matthews added: "Elisabeth, you're always thinking about these things." Bumiller referred to Golda Meir and Margaret Thatcher -- women who were elected to lead Israel and the United Kingdom, respectively -- and said: "[W]e all remember these women. ... I think we can get there." Matthews responded, "But we've got Patton and John Wayne on our side."

On the May 30, 2005, edition of Hardball, Matthews asked retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey if "the troops out there" would "take the orders" from "Hillary Clinton, commander in chief." When McCaffrey responded, "Why wouldn't they listen to a [female] commander in chief? Sure," Matthews responded: "You're chuckling a little bit, aren't you?" When McCaffrey responded "No," Matthews said: "No problem? No problem? No problem?"

[MrsSpringsteen]

NY Daily News

Rush Limbaugh a real bottom dweller

Wednesday, February 6th 2008

Rush Limbaugh's potty mouth runneth over.

Even some fellow conservatives think the cigar-chomping pundit has gone too far in his latest use of the phrase "anal poisoning."

Limbaugh was ranting against Sen. John McCain on his radio show this week when a caller asked whether he thought McCain would pick Sen. Lindsey Graham as his running mate. Limbaugh doubted it, though he admitted: "I may be wrong ... Lindsey Graham is certainly close enough to [McCain] to die of anal poisoning."

Graham's office didn't return a call for comment, but a McCain staffer tells us, "We've been getting a lot of calls from people who think [Limbaugh] has stepped over the line."

One conservative blogger wrote that Limbaugh's turn of phrase was "nasty, disgusting. It demeans Rush, not Lindsey."

Naturally, liberal commentators seized on Limbaugh's coprolalia - reporting that it was the third time he'd used the term in 13 months. (On Jan. 5, 2007, he said that former Democratic National Committee chairman Terry McAuliffe "will die of anal poisoning because he is so close to drilling Hillary [Clinton]."

A source close to Limbaugh says the right-wing gadfly was merely using a "time-honored" synonym for "brown-nosing." But if you Google the term, the only people who seem to be using it are proprietors of porn sites.

At least Limbaugh has a friend in Glenn Beck. The younger conservative radio star declined to weigh in on Limbaugh's "anal" expulsion Tuesday, which is probably a good thing, considering he's recovering from hemorrhoid surgery. But Beck was happy to fire a few rounds at their mutual enemy, MSNBC's Keith Olbermann.

"[Olbermann] is never brave enough to say his political position on air," contends Beck. Although he's pleased that his latest tome, "An Inconvenient Book" has so far outsold Olbermann's "Truth and Consequences," Beck argues, "I don't care about other hosts. I don't need to throw people under the bus. If I saw Olbermann standing on the subway [platform], I might think for a moment about pushing him, but I wouldn't."

Olbermann responds: "The subway remark summarizes who Glenn is. If he (or anybody else) fell in front of a train, I hope I'd have the courage to emulate Wesley Autry and try to save him."

Perhaps they can look to Bill O'Reilly and the Rev. Al Sharpton for inspiration. The longtime antagonists had dinner last week at the Harvard Club. You'll recall that Sharpton took O'Reilly to Sylvia's in Harlem last year, prompting O'Reilly to remark on how well-behaved everyone was at the restaurant, "even though it's run by blacks."

This time, Sharpton says he was talking with the Fox News windbag about debating at Sharpton's National Action Network conference. Did he and O'Reilly find common ground over dinner? "Probably the only thing we agreed on," Sharpton tells us, "is that we were both at the Harvard Club."

[anitram]

Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
On the May 30, 2005, edition of Hardball, Matthews asked retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey if "the troops out there" would "take the orders" from "Hillary Clinton, commander in chief." When McCaffrey responded, "Why wouldn't they listen to a [female] commander in chief? Sure," Matthews responded: "You're chuckling a little bit, aren't you?" When McCaffrey responded "No," Matthews said: "No problem? No problem? No problem?"

How people like Chris Matthews find women to date (or worse yet marry) them is totally beyond me.

[MrsSpringsteen]

Borowitz Report

With the field for the Democratic presidential nomination narrowed to Senators Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton, racists and sexists are finding themselves in a quandary over which candidate to support, prominent racists and sexists confirmed today.

Across the U.S., voters who describe themselves as both racist and sexist complain that the two-person field, while touted by the media as history-making, is forcing them to ask a difficult question: which group do they hate more?

"I've always seen myself as pretty balanced, racist and sexist-wise," said Herb Torlinson, a hardware salesman from Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania. "But I guess this is going to be an election that really puts my different hates to the test."

Mr. Torlinson also chastised the media for celebrating the historic nature of the Democratic field: "Anyone who's happy about these two choices can't call himself a racist or a sexist."

At the Clapboard Corner Café in Youngstown, Ohio, a group of sexist bigots who gather for breakfast once a week echoed Mr. Torlinson's sentiments.

"I actually cried when John Edwards dropped out of the race," said David Colehurn, a disgruntled hater who works at a nearby Kinko's. "I can't believe that we don't have a regular person to vote for this year."

Mr. Colehurn said that his virulent racism and sexism were causing him to entertain thoughts of voting for a Republican, but added that he was "turned off" by Arizona Sen. John McCain: "I hate old people."



Andy Borowitz is a comedian and writer whose work appears in The New Yorker and The New York Times, and at his award-winning humor site, BorowitzReport.com

[rileybug]

I think the rabid Hillary hate is really blown up. I live near a retirement community and they LOVE Hillary here.

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by anitram


How people like Chris Matthews find women to date (or worse yet marry) them is totally beyond me.

i tend to like Matthews -- i think he has a very sophisticated understanding of how the political game really works -- and i know people who genuinely know and like him, but these comments are incredibly stupid.

[U2democrat]

Originally posted by Irvine511




i tend to like Matthews -- i think he has a very sophisticated understanding of how the political game really works -- and i know people who genuinely know and like him, but these comments are incredibly stupid.

I agree. I tend to enjoy his analysis, he understands the game better than most.

I figure if you talk as much as him the law of averages will allow you to say some pretty stupid stuff.

[anitram]

Chris Matthews has been disgusting ever since the primary season began. His comments about Hillary are so misogynistic and disturbing that I wonder what has caused such anger and hatred in him. And he couches it in more general terms so that I'm at the point where I can conclude little more but the fact that he has some serious, serious issues with women in general.

Men like him should have no place in polite society in 2008.