US 2008 Presidential Campaign/Debate Discussion Thread - Part Catorce!

[A_Wanderer]

Say what you will, at least he isn't having one of those 400 dollar John Edwards haircuts.

[maycocksean]

Originally posted by joyfulgirl


My opinion is not at all solely based on who else is supporting him. It was a quick reaction to photos of the dog and pony show of celebrities supporting him.

I'm not trying to yank your chain, here. I'm really not, but I have to point out you're contradicting yourself here.

My point is simply this--make a judgement about the man based on his stances and his platform. I think all thinking Obama supporters understand that he's not going to singlehandedly change Washington if elected--and I don't know that I've ever actually heard him promise to do so. The change that Obama is talking about--if it is happening--is happening NOW. It's the sense that people have that it's actually worth it to vote. If that kind of change could be sustained--well, then yes eventually you would see change in Washington--not because of him, but because of us--the people.

But I will admitt that kind of change might indeed by a lot of lala land dreaming. But we'll know that today, long before November arrives. If he can translate his rock-n'roll crowds into actual votes--well then the change he's talking about might actually be real. If not. . .well perhaps it was a pipe dream after all.

[MrsSpringsteen]

Originally posted by diamond


McCain=Hillary lite with Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome

dbs

Do you really have to sink that low to bring up PTSD? (if that is indeed what you are referring to and I don't see how it can be otherwise interpreted) Whatever else you think about him you should be on your knees and bow to his military service and sacrifice and experience as a POW. That's really disgusting

[joyfulgirl]

Originally posted by maycocksean



But I will admitt that kind of change might indeed by a lot of lala land dreaming. But we'll know that today, long before November arrives. If he can translate his rock-n'roll crowds into actual votes--well then the change he's talking about might actually be real. If not. . .well perhaps it was a pipe dream after all.

I've been thinking about this as well. His rhetoric that leaves me cold has inspired more people to get out and vote than we've seen in a long time. This says a lot and, believe me, I'm not discounting it. When I woke up this morning I realized that because this election is so tight I have to vote for the candidate who has the best chance of beating the Republicans in November. I don't have the luxury this morning of voting the way I want to, I have to vote smart. Yesterday I thought Hillary had the best chance of beating McCain. This morning after further research, it looks like it could be Obama.

As for the quote above, I meant it was a knee-jerk reaction in that irritated moment. Overall, that is not at all how I've been judging him. I've done my homework on the candidates.

[diamond]

Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


Do you really have to sink that low to bring up PTSD? (if that is indeed what you are referring to and I don't see how it can be otherwise interpreted) Whatever else you think about him you should be on your knees and bow to his military service and sacrifice and experience as a POW. That's really disgusting

Nobody is denigrating the man's military service. I've voted for him as for the Senate here in Arizona. I even have an autograghed copy of his book, "Faith of my Fathers"-so nice try Gina-no go.



He does have anger issues and a selective memory- that is a matter of record with his colleagues:


GOP Senators Reassess Views About McCain
His Old Foes Still Wary Of His Pugnacious Style

By Paul Kane
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, February 4, 2008; A01



John McCain once testified under oath that a Senate colleague inappropriately used tobacco corporation donations to sway votes on legislation. He cursed out another colleague in front of 20 senators and staff members, questioning the senator's grip on immigration legislation. And, on the Senate floor, McCain (R-Ariz.) accused another colleague of "egregious behavior" for helping a defense contractor in a move he said resembled "corporate scandals."

And those were just the Republicans.

In a chamber once known for cordiality if not outright gentility, McCain has battled his fellow senators for more than two decades in a fashion that has been forceful and sometimes personal. Now, with the conservative maverick on the brink of securing his party's presidential nomination, McCain's Republican colleagues are grappling with the idea of him at the top of their ticket.

"There would be a lot of people who would have to recalibrate their attitudes toward John," said Sen. Robert F. Bennett (R-Utah), a supporter of Mitt Romney's who has clashed with McCain.

Many Senate Republicans, even those who have jousted with McCain in the past, say their reassessment is underway. Sensing the increasing likelihood that he will be the nominee, GOP senators who have publicly fought with him are emphasizing his war-hero background and playing down past confrontations.

"I forgive him for whatever disagreements he has had with me. We can disagree on things, but I have great admiration for him," said Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska), a senior member of the Appropriations Committee who has often argued with McCain over government spending.

But others have outright rejected the idea of a McCain nomination and presidency, warning that his tirades suggest a temperament unfit for the Oval Office.

"The thought of his being president sends a cold chill down my spine," Sen. Thad Cochran (R-Miss.), also a senior member of the Appropriations panel, told the Boston Globe recently. "He is erratic. He is hotheaded. He loses his temper and he worries me."

A former colleague says McCain's abrasive nature would, at minimum, make his relations with Republicans on Capitol Hill uneasy if he were to become president. McCain could find himself the victim of Republicans who will not go the extra mile for him on legislative issues because of past grievances.

"John was very rough in the sandbox," said former senator Rick Santorum (R-Pa.), who is outspoken in his opposition to McCain's candidacy. "Everybody has a McCain story. If you work in the Senate for a while, you have a McCain story. . . . He hasn't built up a lot of goodwill."

Santorum was a fierce advocate for the GOP's social conservative wing -- a group particularly hostile to McCain because of his apostasy on immigration and same-sex marriage -- while Cochran is considered one of the more genteel senators. Both men back Romney, a former Massachusetts governor, for president.

To McCain's allies, his fiery personality is part of the "Straight Talk" lore, and a positive quality in a passionate fighter who will tell you to your face how much he dislikes an idea.

"When he's arguing about something he believes in, he's arguing about it," said Mark Salter, a top aide to McCain. "It's an admirable trait, the capacity to be outraged."

Salter scoffed at the idea that McCain is not fit to be president and said most stories about his temper are "wildly exaggerated." He pointed to McCain's success at "across-the-aisle cooperation" with Democrats as an example of how he would deal with Congress if elected president.

Those legislative wins include a major campaign finance law in his name in 2002 and a deal with 14 Democrats and Republicans in 2005 that broke Democratic filibusters on judicial nominees. "That resulted in a lot of good, solid, conservative jurists being confirmed," Salter said.

McCain's battles with colleagues have often gone beyond the ins and outs of policy, taking on a fierce personal tone that other senators do not often engage in, at least not in public.

Stevens, for example, has long stuffed the annual Pentagon spending bill with earmarked provisions for his home state that draw the ire of McCain, who has crusaded against such pet projects. In 2002, Stevens inserted an unusual provision in the defense appropriations bill that allowed Boeing Corp. to lease fuel tankers to the Air Force for $21 billion.

McCain regularly took to the floor to criticize the provision and tried to steal jurisdiction from Stevens's subcommittee so he could kill the deal. "This is the same kind of egregious behavior we often rail against here on the Senate floor when it comes to corporate scandals," he said.

While he has lost almost every earmark fight with Stevens, McCain won the Boeing battle by using his perch atop the Commerce Committee in 2003 and 2004 to investigate the lease deal, uncovering corruption inside the Air Force procurement office.

As president, one of McCain's most critical relationships would be with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), a necessary ally in the conflict with a Democratic-led Congress. But their relationship has been gravely tested.

In 2003, after McConnell challenged the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law in court, McCain gave testimony that almost accused McConnell of breaking federal laws. Under oath, he said that in 1998 McConnell tried to scuttle McCain's legislation to settle lawsuits against the tobacco industry by informing GOP senators that Big Tobacco would spend millions of dollars supporting candidates who opposed McCain's bill.

McConnell has denied the nature of the allegation, but that deposition culminated a five-year fight between the senators over the tobacco bill and the campaign finance legislation. But McConnell said last week that he would have no trouble with McCain as the nominee or as president.

"We've had a great relationship since," McConnell said. "All of them [McCain's fights] have been respectable and entirely within the traditions of the Senate."

McCain's relationship with House Republicans has been strained for years. After stumping for more than 50 GOP candidates during the 2000 campaign, McCain dramatically scaled back his efforts in 2002 out of pique toward House Republicans who opposed his effort to overhaul campaign finance law. In 2004, while McCain was objecting to GOP-backed tax cuts, then-Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) suggested that the senator, a former prisoner of war, should go to Walter Reed Army Medical Center to see what "sacrifice" meant to the nation.

Nevertheless, many House Republicans now view McCain as the best possible nominee. Despite the senator's heresies on taxes, immigration and campaign finance, Rep. Tom Cole (Okla.), chairman of the Republican campaign committee, said McCain could appeal to independent voters.

"You'll have more Democrats running away from Hillary Clinton than you'll have Republicans running away from our nominee," he said.

In his first run for the presidency in 2000, McCain's temperament became an issue as campaign aides to George W. Bush questioned whether the senator was a suitable occupant for the Oval Office. Only a few of McCain's Senate colleagues endorsed him then.

But the past few years have seen fewer McCain outbursts, prompting some senators and aides to suggest privately that he is working to control his temper. This time, 13 senators have endorsed his presidential bid, more than for any other candidate, Democrat or Republican.

"We all get a little bit mellower," Salter said. "But he doesn't get up every morning saying, 'I must control my temper.' "

Last spring, however, McCain's confrontational side reappeared during a closed-door meeting of senators from both parties. After spending six weeks away from the Senate, he showed up for final negotiations on a fragile immigration bill, leading Sen. John Cornyn (R-Tex.) to question where he had been. McCain responded by swearing at Cornyn loudly and repeatedly, according to witnesses.

Cornyn, who has not endorsed a presidential candidate, doesn't expect to befriend McCain anytime soon but said he will happily stump for him as the nominee.

"We've had our moments, but we've gotten over that and moved on down the road," Cornyn said. "You're talking about people who are professionals. You don't have to link arms and sing 'Kumbaya' to get things done."

[deep]

Originally posted by joyfulgirl




I don't have the luxury this morning of voting the way I want to, I have to vote smart. Yesterday I thought Hillary had the best chance of beating McCain. This morning after further research, it looks like it could be Obama.

I don't feel any real passion for or against Hillary of Obama.

I don't dislike either of them.



I am more inclined to like McCain, than dislike him personally. Politically, that may be a different story.

I feel fairly strongly that it is better for the country and world if we elect a Democrat this November.


The one thing I feel strongest about with some passion is
that Obama will most likely lose the election to McCain.

Along with the belief than Hillary has a much better chance of beating him.



>>>>>> Please keep in mind
that 6 months ago everyone believed Rudy would be the GOP nominee and would beat hillary in November.

[Irvine511]

i have no idea what's going to happen.

not a clue.

McCain is back from the dead, and Hillary is in the fight of her life, and Saint Rudy had concrete galoshes.



i suppose that's the beauty of full throated democracy.

[anitram]

Originally posted by deep



The one thing I feel strongest about with some passion is
that Obama will most likely lose the election to McCain.

Along with the belief than Hillary has a much better chance of beating him.

Polls stink, but they can be indicative of a trend. Obama wins in all of them v. McCain.

The American elections are so often (usually? mostly?) about style over substance. And that's why I disagree with you, though I think you usually call the elections right. I don't think McCain, old, stale, and angry looking has any STYLE. He also has nothing really solid to say about the economy, and can't talk about immigration, which leaves him with Iraq. Something that 3/4 of the country disagrees with him on.

That's to say nothing of the fact that his fundraising blows chunks.

Cook Political Report/RT Strategies:

Clinton 48%, Romney 42%
McCain 45%, Clinton 41%

Obama 50%, Romney 41%
Obama 45%, McCain 43%

CNN/Opinion Research Corp.:

Clinton 56%, Romney 41%
Clinton 50%, McCain 47%

Obama 59%, Romney 36%
Obama 52%, McCain 44%

ABC News/Washington Post:

Clinton 53, Romney 41%
McCain 49%, Clinton 46%

Obama 59%, Romney 34%
Obama 49%, McCain 46%

Fox News/Opinion Dynamics:

Clinton 50%, Romney 36%
McCain 45%, Clinton 44%

Obama 51%, Romney 33%
Obama 44%, McCain 43%

[deep]

Originally posted by anitram


Polls stink, but they can be indicative of a trend. Obama wins in all of them v. McCain.

The American elections are so often (usually? mostly?) about style over substance. And that's why I disagree with you, though I think you usually call the elections right.

those are only my opinions

thanks for sharing your opinion, I do always take your view into consideration.

I come here for the discussions, to hear different opinions and the thinking behind them

I think it is pointless to debate


I think many are writing what they want to happen and are working hard to help achieve happen.

My thoughts are not what I want to happen.


I realize they are not shared by many

and yes, I am aware of the current polls.


Trends are just that, they do go in different directions, there is something called peaking



How much time between now and Nov? 7-8 months?

What did the polls say 7-8 months ago?

[MrsSpringsteen]

Originally posted by diamond


Nobody is denigrating the man's military service. I've voted for him as for the Senate here in Arizona. I even have an autograghed copy of his book, "Faith of my Fathers"

He does have anger issues and a selective memory- that is a matter of record with his colleagues:

It's not a "nice try" at anything, your nasty little comment about his PTSD was uncalled for and irrelevant and DOES denigrate his service because that's how he got it if he has it. Are you so angry that he's trouncing Mitt (according to your posts here you like him because he's Mormon and he has good hair/you think he's hot, I'm not even sure about any other reasons you have for thinking he's so great) that you have to resort to such a thing? Just like your cheap shots here about someone's music or anything else-uncalled for and mean spirited.

He has "anger issues"-well so does Mitt I would imagine, being able to hide that behind a plastered on grin doesn't equal less existing internal anger or more civility and/or competence. I prefer someone who is upfront about their anger over a plastic grin signifying nothing. So is John McCain a "shrew" too? Just wonderin'

[joyfulgirl]

Originally posted by deep


The one thing I feel strongest about with some passion is
that Obama will most likely lose the election to McCain.

Along with the belief than Hillary has a much better chance of beating him.

My gut instinct is to agree with you. Then I look at the polls.

This morning I learned that my Edwards-supporting colleagues who said last week they would support Obama are now leaning towards Clinton, which totally surprised me.

So in a "normal" election the polls say a lot. This is not a normal election. People are all over the place, saying one thing, doing another.

[Irvine511]

diamond is totally gay for Mitt.

[2861U2]

I just voted, and it was awesome.

[MrsSpringsteen]

I just love that McCain is freaking people like Rush and Ann Coulter out, it's too enjoyable for words.

Limbaugh: McCain Out to Destroy GOP for 2000 S.C. Defeat

February 04, 2008 4:13 PM

ABC News' Jennifer Parker Reports: Continuing his attack on Republican frontrunner Sen. John McCain, conservative radio show host Rush Limbaugh devoted a significant portion of his radio show Monday to urging conservatives not to vote for the senator in tomorrow's Super Tuesday contests.

For weeks, Limbaugh has been on the attack against McCain, branding the Arizona senator a "liberal" and suggesting he would destroy the Republican Party.

On his radio show Monday Limbaugh said that if McCain is elected president, he would destroy the Republican party by working with Democrats to pass liberal legislation.

"He's going to reach out to Democrats in Congress," Limbaugh said, citing "McCain -Kennedy" and "McCain -Feingold" as examples of McCain-sponsored bipartisan legislation.

"This is how he's going to get even with Republicans for defeating him in South Carolina in 2000," Limbaugh said.
"The Republican Congress will effectively be neutered."

In 2000, McCain lost South Carolina to George W. Bush, effectively killing his first presidential bid.

Limbaugh also suggested conservatives should be wary of media endorsements of McCain. McCain has won the endorsement of the New York Times.

"It was just six months ago that if a candidate was endorsed by the liberal media we were instantly suspicious of them," Limbaugh said.

Now he said, "we've got drive-by media organizations having orgasms about McCain."

The conservative radio host also lambasted Fred Barnes, editor of the conservative magazine The Weekly Standard for an editorial titled "Let's Grow Up Conservatives" that urges conservatives to give McCain a chance if he continues to reach out to them.

"Fred, you used to be one of us!" Limbaugh said. "Now you seem to be all for Republicans having its liberal wing too."

Limbaugh also suggested McCain is winning over anti-abortion advocates, despite McCain's long-held record of opposing abortion rights.

"It's pro-choicers who are voting for McCain. That's who liberals are!" Limbaugh said.

McCain's chief Republican rival former Gov. Mitt Romney aired a campaign ad today on Limbaugh's radio program attacking McCain's record on taxes and immigration.

"John McCain, he's been in Washington a long time," the announcer says.
While Limbaugh has not endorsed Romney, he has been urging his listeners for weeks not to vote for McCain at a time when McCain and Romney have argued over who is the true conservative.

While Romney has argued that he is a "Ronald Reagan" conservative, many of his earlier positions on abortion, same-sex marriage and gun rights while he was governor of Massachusetts leave many conservatives doubtful of his candidacy.

McCain, meanwhile, has always had a difficult relationship with the conservative wing of the Republican party.

Before the South Carolina primary, McCain's 95-year-old mother, Roberta, urged conservative to "hold their nose" and vote for her son.

Limbaugh's opinions appeared to rub off on one caller Monday named Bruce.

"I'm not a mind-numb robot and I'm not going to vote for John McCain!" the caller said.

Limbaugh's outspoken rejection of McCain led former Republican Senate leader Bob Dole to write him a letter today that was sent to media today by the McCain campaign.

"Rush," Dole wrote, "I was the Republican Leader from January 1985 until I left the Senate voluntarily in June 1996. I worked closely with Senator McCain when he came to the Senate in 1987 until I departed. I cannot recall a single instance when he did not support the Party on critical votes.

"Whoever wins the Republican nomination will need your enthusiastic support. Two terms for the Clintons are enough," Dole wrote.

[Headache in a Suitcase]

a mccain / obama face off could be exactly what this country needs.

[deep]

Originally posted by joyfulgirl


This is not a normal election. People are all over the place, saying one thing, doing another.

I completely agree

this is not a normal election in the Democratic primaries.

There are so many factors affecting and influencing Democratic primary voters.

It is very fluid and emotional.

Once the primary is over.

History will be made.

The dream will be realized.

Yes We Can.

America will have proved we are color blind.

Just like we proved we were gender blind in 1988.

[deep]

Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
a mccain / obama face off could be exactly what this country needs.

I thought bloomberg was your man?

[U2isthebest]

Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
I just love that McCain is freaking people like Rush and Ann Coulter out, it's too enjoyable for words.

Limbaugh: McCain Out to Destroy GOP for 2000 S.C. Defeat

February 04, 2008 4:13 PM

ABC News' Jennifer Parker Reports: Continuing his attack on Republican frontrunner Sen. John McCain, conservative radio show host Rush Limbaugh devoted a significant portion of his radio show Monday to urging conservatives not to vote for the senator in tomorrow's Super Tuesday contests.

For weeks, Limbaugh has been on the attack against McCain, branding the Arizona senator a "liberal" and suggesting he would destroy the Republican Party.

On his radio show Monday Limbaugh said that if McCain is elected president, he would destroy the Republican party by working with Democrats to pass liberal legislation.

"He's going to reach out to Democrats in Congress," Limbaugh said, citing "McCain -Kennedy" and "McCain -Feingold" as examples of McCain-sponsored bipartisan legislation.

"This is how he's going to get even with Republicans for defeating him in South Carolina in 2000," Limbaugh said.
"The Republican Congress will effectively be neutered."

In 2000, McCain lost South Carolina to George W. Bush, effectively killing his first presidential bid.

Limbaugh also suggested conservatives should be wary of media endorsements of McCain. McCain has won the endorsement of the New York Times.

"It was just six months ago that if a candidate was endorsed by the liberal media we were instantly suspicious of them," Limbaugh said.

Now he said, "we've got drive-by media organizations having orgasms about McCain."

The conservative radio host also lambasted Fred Barnes, editor of the conservative magazine The Weekly Standard for an editorial titled "Let's Grow Up Conservatives" that urges conservatives to give McCain a chance if he continues to reach out to them.

"Fred, you used to be one of us!" Limbaugh said. "Now you seem to be all for Republicans having its liberal wing too."

Limbaugh also suggested McCain is winning over anti-abortion advocates, despite McCain's long-held record of opposing abortion rights.

"It's pro-choicers who are voting for McCain. That's who liberals are!" Limbaugh said.

McCain's chief Republican rival former Gov. Mitt Romney aired a campaign ad today on Limbaugh's radio program attacking McCain's record on taxes and immigration.

"John McCain, he's been in Washington a long time," the announcer says.
While Limbaugh has not endorsed Romney, he has been urging his listeners for weeks not to vote for McCain at a time when McCain and Romney have argued over who is the true conservative.

While Romney has argued that he is a "Ronald Reagan" conservative, many of his earlier positions on abortion, same-sex marriage and gun rights while he was governor of Massachusetts leave many conservatives doubtful of his candidacy.

McCain, meanwhile, has always had a difficult relationship with the conservative wing of the Republican party.

Before the South Carolina primary, McCain's 95-year-old mother, Roberta, urged conservative to "hold their nose" and vote for her son.

Limbaugh's opinions appeared to rub off on one caller Monday named Bruce.

"I'm not a mind-numb robot and I'm not going to vote for John McCain!" the caller said.

Limbaugh's outspoken rejection of McCain led former Republican Senate leader Bob Dole to write him a letter today that was sent to media today by the McCain campaign.

"Rush," Dole wrote, "I was the Republican Leader from January 1985 until I left the Senate voluntarily in June 1996. I worked closely with Senator McCain when he came to the Senate in 1987 until I departed. I cannot recall a single instance when he did not support the Party on critical votes.

"Whoever wins the Republican nomination will need your enthusiastic support. Two terms for the Clintons are enough," Dole wrote.

That was fantastic. Take some Valium, Rush, the panic will pass. I see Bob Dole is still bitter over 96.

[deep]

Originally posted by U2isthebest
I see Bob Dole is still bitter over 96.

Bob Dole's whole career was built on being a "moderate" similar to McCain.

[U2isthebest]

Originally posted by deep



Bob Dole's whole career was built on being a "moderate" similar to McCain.

I remember hearing about that. Didn't he try to paint himself as far more to the right, so to speak, during the 96 election though? I read somewhere that one of his biggest problems during the campaign was all the time he had to spend convincing Republicans he was conservative enough at the beginning of his campaign. I was only 8 at the time, so I don't remember a whole lot of the campaign/election except for the fact that his constant referring to himself in the third person was really weird.