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Old 02-12-2008, 10:39 AM   #81
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I agree with Diemen. Also, it's virtually impossible for a candidate to spell out all their positions and policies in a 90 minute debate that we see. As for speeches, we usually see soundbites that the media thinks are guaranteed to garner the most attention, which will lead to bigger ratings. That's all they care about. The biggest problem is that we've become so lazy that we don't want to have to think or do anything for ourselves. It's up to us to find out what these politicians stand for, and the Internet has made that much easier than it was even a decade ago. All the candidates have websites, and they all have extensive policy ideas as far as I know. That's where I first learned about Obama and what helped me decide that he has the ideas and knowledge necessary to lead our country.
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Old 02-12-2008, 08:08 PM   #82
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Originally posted by MaxFisher


no one is questioning his ability to lead based on his star crazed supporters. a few years ago Obama was a member of the IL state legislature. he has limited experience and his speeches continue to be composed of mostly grandiose platitudes with little explanation of how he'll implement policy. if it weren't for his rockstar persona, he'd have been out of the race a long time ago.
Did you notice how during the California debates he responded to all of the questions with more grandiose platitudes about "change" and "hope"?

Neither did I.

Obama has provided plenty of substance in his speeches, but they don't sound as good on TV.

Give me an example of a policy that Clinton has explained how she'll implement in a way that Obama has failed to do. Because, at least with the health care plans both are promoting NEITHER candidate has done a very good job of explaining how they'll plausibly pay for their programs. Politicians are always ambitions in their plans but reality will hamper what they can actually accomplish. And that's equally true for both Clinton and Obama.

We had a little thread going comparing his and Hillary's health care plans (now buried on page 2). Which plan is better, in your opinion?
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Old 02-12-2008, 08:14 PM   #83
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Because, at least with the health care plans both are promoting NEITHER candidate has done a very good job of explaining how they'll plausibly pay for their programs.
Actually I don't think that's true.

I've certainly heard them both explain it to a reasonably good degree. Her plan is something like $50ish billion more, which means she can't finance it with simply rolling back the Bush tax cuts. She's somewhat vague about how she's going to come up with the extra money. I do believe Obama can cover his program simply through the tax roll back.
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Old 02-12-2008, 10:24 PM   #84
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I've certainly heard them both explain it to a reasonably good degree. Her plan is something like $50ish billion more, which means she can't finance it with simply rolling back the Bush tax cuts. She's somewhat vague about how she's going to come up with the extra money. I do believe Obama can cover his program simply through the tax roll back.
Fair enough. I guess it's more accurate to say that I am skeptical about the plans they have for covering the costs of such a large extension government-funded health care.
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Old 02-13-2008, 10:15 AM   #85
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Newsbusters

During MSNBC's live coverage of Tuesday's presidential primary elections, after the speeches of Barack Obama and John McCain had aired, Chris Matthews expressed his latest over the top admiration for Obama's speaking skills as the MSNBC anchor admitted that Obama's speech created a "thrill" in his leg: "It's part of reporting this case, this election, the feeling most people get when they hear Barack Obama's speech. My, I felt this thrill going up my leg. I mean, I don't have that too often." Minutes later, Brian Williams poked fun at Matthews' confession: "Let's talk about that feeling Chris gets up his leg when Obama talks ... That seems to be the headline of this half hour."
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Old 02-13-2008, 10:39 AM   #86
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Newsbusters

During MSNBC's live coverage of Tuesday's presidential primary elections, after the speeches of Barack Obama and John McCain had aired, Chris Matthews expressed his latest over the top admiration for Obama's speaking skills as the MSNBC anchor admitted that Obama's speech created a "thrill" in his leg: "It's part of reporting this case, this election, the feeling most people get when they hear Barack Obama's speech. My, I felt this thrill going up my leg. I mean, I don't have that too often." Minutes later, Brian Williams poked fun at Matthews' confession: "Let's talk about that feeling Chris gets up his leg when Obama talks ... That seems to be the headline of this half hour."

I loved that! When Chris Matthews said that bit about the thrill up his leg my friend and I turned to each other like

And then when Brian Williams came on and said that I burst out laughing.
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Old 02-13-2008, 10:43 AM   #87
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I believe he hasn't had that too often

At least he didn't say the thrill was somewhere else though, although that would have been one of the greatest moments in tv history.
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Old 02-13-2008, 10:49 AM   #88
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My reaction was "Holy crap, Chris has a heart attack every time Obama speaks!"

But yes, if it had been somewhere else, that would have been different
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Old 02-13-2008, 10:52 AM   #89
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I was watching last night when that happened and immediately thought of Laura when Brian Williams came back with his little comment.
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:09 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
Give me an example of a policy that Clinton has explained how she'll implement in a way that Obama has failed to do. Because, at least with the health care plans both are promoting NEITHER candidate has done a very good job of explaining how they'll plausibly pay for their programs. Politicians are always ambitions in their plans but reality will hamper what they can actually accomplish. And that's equally true for both Clinton and Obama.

We had a little thread going comparing his and Hillary's health care plans (now buried on page 2). Which plan is better, in your opinion?
Max isn't a Hillary supporter...
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Old 02-13-2008, 01:36 PM   #91
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Originally posted by LarryMullen's_POPAngel
I was watching last night when that happened and immediately thought of Laura when Brian Williams came back with his little comment.


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Old 02-13-2008, 03:48 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher


no one is questioning his ability to lead based on his star crazed supporters. a few years ago Obama was a member of the IL state legislature. he has limited experience and his speeches continue to be composed of mostly grandiose platitudes with little explanation of how he'll implement policy. if it weren't for his rockstar persona, he'd have been out of the race a long time ago.
That's not what these speeches are for. If I were his campaign manager—and I obviously don't need to be—I would advise him to avoid too much detail at a rally.

That's what the debates are for, that's what the website is for, that's what the townhall meetings are for. In those venues, he's been very specific about his public policy. If you haven't seen it, you haven't looked very hard.
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Old 02-13-2008, 03:56 PM   #93
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I think if I were his campaign manager I'd focus on the debates more, as Hillary has been pretty damn good in most all of them.

But now that the pendulum has swung in his favor perhaps that will change, too.
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Old 02-13-2008, 07:58 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

Max isn't a Hillary supporter...
I don't see how that matters.

This idea that Obama can't explain where he stands is simply untrue. If he's maintaing that it is then he should be able to illustrate how Clinton (or any candidate) is doing a much better job of stating their position than he is.
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:04 AM   #95
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...s02062008.html




There are some other good cartoons in there.
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:21 AM   #96
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http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/...not_style.html

great article on the substance behind obama's economic policies
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Old 02-14-2008, 08:35 AM   #97
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^interesting article, albeit in a UK publication. I especially like the last line:

"Stand for change"? I think I will.
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:06 AM   #98
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I just read a very interesting interview with Samantha Powers over at salon.com. She is the Pulitzer-prize winning author of "A Problem From Hell: America and the Age of Genocide" and professor at Harvard. Now she's serving as the senior foreign policy advisor to Obama. Some excerpts...

Quote:
What is the biggest foreign policy challenge for the next president?

The next president is really going to have to walk and chew gum at the same time, because no long-term peace in the Middle East is possible until we get some kind of modus vivendi in the Arab-Israeli situation. And then the singular challenge is being handed two wars, two live battlefields -- and one of them in the heart of the Middle East. It can't be an afterthought as it was in the Bush administration.

...

In light of all the questioning of Obama's "experience," you've said he has dirt under his fingernails, and that he would bring a new America to the world. How would he do that?

The idea that he doesn't have experience is nuts to me. He's a constitutional law professor. I happen to miss the Constitution; I thought it was a good document. That's a huge component of being a president when you're combating terrorism and you're trying to restore American values.

The fact that he used to work in the inner city, that's the dirt under his fingernails. If people are an abstraction to you, it's going to show. If you're living with people, if you're working in the inner city, you see the human stakes of it all. He's also worked abroad, so he's comfortable crossing boundaries.

You've said that the Bush administration has diminished the U.S. government's credibility among its own citizens. Can the next president fix that?

I don't think the next president can just show up and have it restored. Whoever wins is probably going to win by a narrow margin. One of the reasons Obama is so appealing to me is that he doesn't take the American people for granted; you don't stop having this conversation when you enter the White House. None of the major foreign policy challenges on the horizon can be tackled if we don't have a thick domestic base. We can't do foreign aid, we can't get out of Iraq, succeed in Afghanistan, close Guantánamo and end torture policy without actually talking to people about the costs of that.

Entire article is at salon.com (you have to watch a commercial before getting access to read)
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:10 AM   #99
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Old 02-18-2008, 11:00 AM   #100
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In terms of the "experience" bit, I loved these quips on Meet the Press this weekend regarding the two "more experienced" candidates:

- During her husband's administration, Hillary was given the task of working on healthcare. She had 8 years to make her view of healthcare happen. She failed. 8 years.

- Both Clinton and McCain, at some point in this race, have each bankrupted or nearly bankrupted their campaigns. That's fiscal responsibility!

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