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Old 01-08-2007, 10:40 PM   #21
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Originally posted by financeguy


Given the number of celebrities, rock stars, etc, that smoke and given that tobacco advertising is still legal in many parts of the world, including many US states, it is not at all surprising.
Given the cold hard facts people get about cigarettes from childhood, this is a lame-ass excuse to start what everyone knows is a deadly, disgusting, foul habit.
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Old 01-08-2007, 10:48 PM   #22
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^

I don't care if people smoke, but do it in your own home, and don't get offended if I ask you to move away from me, if we are outside and you start smoking. Don't people realise they are breathing dirty chemical filled smoke into other peoples lungs. How would it go down if I lit a big industrial chemical filled rag and waved it around in peoples face for 5 minutes.

I'm all for people taking responsibilty for their actions, so if they want to smoke, by all means smoke, but if you blow smoke in my face you'll fucking hear about it (i think the guy who lit a smoke near me at u2 is still feeling the effects of my wrath HAHAH )
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Old 01-08-2007, 10:49 PM   #23
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Ok, the rhetoric is really getting out of hand around here.

I smoke. Yes, it is a bad habit, but I am not a bad person. You know why? Cause I do it in my own home. I live alone. End of story.

Not everyone who enjoys a smoke is a crazy paranoid libertarian, or a jerk.
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Old 01-08-2007, 10:52 PM   #24
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Originally posted by Kieran McConville
Not everyone who enjoys a smoke is a crazy paranoid libertarian, or a jerk.
Of course not. But offering any excuse other than addiction or enjoyment is lame.

And, many many people who smoke in public are fucking rude about it, and the people who smoke in places where they know it's prohibited should be removed immediately from that place.
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Old 01-08-2007, 10:53 PM   #25
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Plus, it is an anti-smoking thread, you know.
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Old 01-08-2007, 11:40 PM   #26
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As I said, don't care what you get up to in your own home, you're a grown man, you know the risks, so you make your choice. It doesn't make you a bad person, not at all, but when you encroach in someone elses space, smoking is an extremely intrusive thing to do, and im glad there are now laws against it, because it does really affect other people around you if they are not smoking.

But also, with all the health risks involved i don't know how anyone could stll be addicted to the stuff. An occasiona smoke is not going to harm you, like an occasional glass of wine or beer, but if someone is drink 20+ beers a day, like cigarettes you gotta know you are really fucking up your insides.
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Old 01-09-2007, 12:22 AM   #27
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Yeah I've got no problem with no-smoking in public spaces. I wouldn't dream of encroaching on others' space.

I find however, that others have no problem encroaching on mine. For example the neighbours and their non-stop barking dogs. And the other neighbours with their non-stop doof-doof bass music. And the insane drivers who put my life at risk everytime I enter the main street of the city (a more, shall we say, immediate threat to life and limb).

Yes, this is an anti-smoking thread, I get it.
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Old 01-09-2007, 12:47 AM   #28
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Several people in my family have died of emphysema and my dad's father died of lung cancer at age 26 due to smoking.

My mom smokes although she's cut back and I don't give her shit because after a point it's just obnoxious. I don't go around telling people they should quit if they keep it to themselves, but there's no use pretending it won't kill you.
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Old 01-09-2007, 12:52 AM   #29
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My story:

I had my first smoke at a party in Grade 11. Not unusual, I imagine, but I never smoked again for another year and a half or so. One night I was up late in the early summer of 2004 (after I graduated) at my parents' house, and thought I smelled smoke so I went to check it out. Turns out my stepbrother was smoking in his room, he offered me one and I took it. I started with every so often - maybe once a month at a party. In the summer of 2005 I worked at a museum with a guy who owned his own car and smoked like a chimney in that car. Since the museum was in the middle of nowhere and the only way to get lunch was to drive 20 minutes to the next town, he drove me. He smoked a lot, and eventually I was, too. Three or four cigarettes a day at work and usually one at about 2 am at night, hanging out a window in my parents' house with a fan on full-blast and a full can of Febreze at the ready. My parents would have killed me if they knew.

But they never found out, and at the end of that summer I moved into residence. I went out two or three nights a week to the bars for the first couple of months and smoked while I drank, but I mostly gave up smoking during daylight hours once I moved out of the house. By the time December rolled around, I was back up to four or five cigarettes a day, in broad daylight. I had to stop cold-turkey when I went home for Christmas break though, and I got a (non-smoker) girlfriend, so I unintentionally cut back to only smoking when I went out to the bar - although I was smoking nearly an entire pack with my friends every single time I went out. Things stayed the same until May.

I then moved into the house I live in now with two friends from residence, both of whom would smoke about a pack a day between the both of them. I began smoking more and more again until the point where I was back up to about five cigarettes a day (sometimes more though). One day in June, I decided to quit. Just like that. I'd had enough of the taste (I never enjoyed smoking itself, only the head rush after). And somehow, I just stopped. I decided one day while smoking that it was my last, and it was. I had one smoke in August when I was drunk, smoked about two puffs but it tasted so awful that I put it out and resolved never again.

Fast forward to November 2006. I got a new job in a restaurant kitchen, and at least 80% of the people I work with smoked. The first day of work I wanted to go out and socialize with my new co-workers so I asked one of them for a smoke. And I didn't stop there, I smoked for a month, until mid-December. I've quit again. My last cigarette was smoked after I failed an exam on the 15th of December and I haven't had one or had the desire to have one ever since.

Here's hoping I don't start again.

But the point of that story was that despite being bombarded with stories of how bad smoking was and having lost more than a couple family members to smoking, I still did it anyways because of friends. I wanted to fit in. I think a lot of kids who start smoking nowadays have similar stories.

We know how bad it is, but we start because of some social reason, not because of celebrities who smoke. I consider myself lucky that I got out (at least so far) before I got to the point where I couldn't.
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Old 01-09-2007, 03:07 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


What is your alternative hypothesis?
I have to agree with what Lies and Martha said.

In my classes here you'd be lucky to find one or two people who smoke. I only have one friend who smokes. A lot of them quit, most of them never started. The ones I know who did smoke did it because their friends did, their parents did or their parents were really against it so they did it to rebel against them. Nothing to do with rock stars and celebrities smoking.

Last year I worked in two schools abroad and in some classes half of them smoked. I found that there cigarettes were much cheaper - here it's around £5 for a pack of 20 ($10) and in Spain you could buy a pack for under 2 Euro. Next year they're raising the legal age from 16 to 18, in Spain I saw kids of around 14 buying cigarettes. Also in school they would be smoking outside in the playground with their teachers puffing away too and I don't doubt their parents smoked either. It was acceptable, everyone else around them did it so most of them started smoking too.

Everyone starts smoking for different reasons but I've noticed that when you're from a country that has a lot of anti-smoking ads on radio/tv/magazines, schools don't allow it, where smoking is more expensive less people do it and more people try to quit. When you move to somewhere where it's the complete opposite there is a noticeable increase in the amount of smokers.

I had a friend last year who smoked all the time. She had cancer and various health problems. She was 14 years younger than her partner but she looked 14 years older than him. Her skin was really bad and she had two operations during the 8 months I was there. Hearing about how she suffers would put me off ever touching a cigarette.
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Old 01-09-2007, 04:36 AM   #31
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Originally posted by Axver
[B]

What I don't get is why libertarians aren't all for anti-smoking laws, as their pro-smoking arguments seem to boil down to "I should be allowed to smoke if I want to!" In actual fact, arguments in both directions employ the same "I should have the liberty to do what I want!" logic, with the 'do what I want' in one case being smoking and in the other case being breathing clean air. However, this is the primary pro-smoking argument, while it is just one of multiple primary anti-smoking arguments. The anti-smoking side has a stronger case and involves the "I should have the liberty to do what I want!" logic the libertarians like to use.
I have never smoked and every member of my immediate family does, most all of my coworkers do and they all know the risks (which I think are overstated to children in a scare the shit out of them young sort of way with a lot of propaganda).

Clean air is not a liberty, the right to do something that will harm you for a chemical rush is, the right to have control over your brain chemistry is, libertarianism does not to demand I must smoke, eat poorly a die at 60 but as a philosophy it should mean that I as an individual have the right to do so if I wish; and that extends over other ilicit drugs, and I would be interested in hearing if the more hedonistic libertarian types agree with legalisation of opioids and ending the war on drugs.

Kids don't smoke; unless you wan't to look cool and fit in
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Old 01-09-2007, 04:55 AM   #32
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My mother died of lung cancer when she was only 60 years-old. She won't be able to share in the joy of my wedding this August. She was a 1-2 pack-a-day smoker.

Enough said?
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Old 01-09-2007, 05:27 AM   #33
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I can understand people trying alcohol or various illegal drugs because quite frankly they feel good. In my experience with cigarettes (I tried them a few times when I was young) though there seems to be nothing pleasurable about smoking them, even if everyone else is.

Does anyone remember getting a good feeling or any kind of pleasure from smoking when they first started? I do get the feeling I'm watching a junkie get a fix when I watch a longtime heavy smoker take a drag after a period without, but what -- other than to fit in -- is the initial appeal? Do some people actually get a kind of high from it?
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Old 01-09-2007, 05:33 AM   #34
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High, no. Something people enjoy, yes, in a similar vein to a glass of wine.

My theory is that for most people it begins to fit into a habitual pattern, but before you can acknowledge that and cease it, the addiction has well and truly taken hold. It is said to be harder to quit than heroin. No idea how accurate that is.
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Old 01-09-2007, 05:35 AM   #35
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Does anyone remember getting a good feeling or any kind of pleasure from smoking when they first started? I do get the feeling I'm watching a junkie get a fix when I watch a longtime heavy smoker take a drag after a period without, but what -- other than to fit in -- is the initial appeal? Do some people actually get a kind of high from it?
Theres a good reason for this, it's the same reason that pharmaceutical companies sponser anti-smoking campaigns and it's all about how to deliver the drug people need.
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Old 01-09-2007, 05:37 AM   #36
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I am 46 years old and I have NEVER had a cigarette in my mouth EVER!.....I'm very proud to say.

The worst thing for me is going out to a club or restaurant and being surrounded by clouds of smoke which totally ruin my evening.

I apologize for sounding preachy....I don't mean to.

I encourage everybody who is trying to quit smoking and I give you a BIG hug.

XXX
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Old 01-09-2007, 05:46 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
It is said to be harder to quit than heroin. No idea how accurate that is.
From my experience (I myself never smoked, but my parents did, and many of my friends did at least for a few weeks, some longer) you can't generally say whether it is easy to quit or not.
It totally depends on the person.
It's like with the start of the addiction. Some can smoke one or two cigarrettes and stop again, others smoke one and are addicted to it.
And with quiting it's the same. My mother e.g. tried to, and went to some hypnosis course to stop, then she went there again, and still she smokes sometimes, I think even every day.
My father decided to stop, and did so.

Many other people are the same, and no one can say only because for him it was easy it would be easy for everybody, as no one can say it would be hard for everybody.

I wouldn't compare it to a drug like heroin or cocaine. Not only because the drugs work totally different, but also because people are reacting to the addiction so differently.


I would be very happy if at least in public places people would stop to smoke and go outside. I'm suffering from a kind of asthma myself, maybe caused by passive smoking, I don't know.
Also, it's not like drinking where the alcohol only gets into your body, but the smoke gets into the body of everyone around the smoker.
Sometimes there are so many smokers in a bar I have to leave because I can't breathe anymore, and my eyes feel dry and hurt. You also can't see the other side of the room because of all this smoke.

Even the best ventilation can't cope with so much smoke.
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Old 01-09-2007, 05:59 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
the right to do something that will harm you for a chemical rush is [a liberty]
But you have no right to do something that will harm others for a chemical rush, and that's what smoking in public settings does. So why are libertarians all for it when it's infringing upon other peoples' liberties?
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:11 AM   #39
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Firstly the harm is cumulative, standing a meter away from a smoker for five minutes isn't quantifiable harm, secondly we are dealing with private premises such as bars and clubs where the owners have final say over what people can and cannot do and lastly as I said a liberty is a freedom of action and is not neccessarily good or bad; you have no right to use force to stop other people from smoking, you do have a right to ask them to stop or to walk away; this line on minimising harm is at the expense of liberty - it's the same sort of puritanical arguments made by the temperance movement during the era of prohibition as well as those of the anti-drug movement.

Ban smoking in public spaces, ban it from all government buildings, ban it in all public schools but allow the owners of restaurants, clubs and pubs to make the call themselves; patrons are consenting by entering a smoke filled room - if there really is commerical benefit to making premises smoke free (apparently a trend with less people smoking) then it is in their interests to start putting bans in place and I 100% support that. If I maintained a smoke free venue and somebody tried to light up and refused to stop then they should be removed, thats good for everybody, but getting the government to come in to enforce an anti-smoking regime in venues that they don't own then that is wrong.

I think that it's a real pity that people still smoke, I think that anybody with the fortitude to quit deserves a pat on the back and will hopefully enjoy the benefits of a healthier lifestyle, but I still think that as individuals we are capable of living with freedom even when it means that some make people make the stupid choice.
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:32 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Ban smoking in public spaces, ban it from all government buildings, ban it in all public schools but allow the owners of restaurants, clubs and pubs to make the call themselves; - if there really is commerical benefit to making premises smoke free (apparently a trend with less people smoking) then it is in their interests to start putting bans in place.
I say it's the owners of these places who want to see the smoking ban more than anyone else, after all they are the people subjected to that smoke-filled atmosphere all the time. From what I've read they can't wait for the smoking ban to commence here.

Quote:
patrons are consenting by entering a smoke filled room
People are entitled to breathe clean air, the same way someone can smoke if they please. I wouldn't smoke around a non-smoker. It's about having some decency and respect for the comfort and health of those around you, especially as now everyone should be well aware of the risks for non-smokers too. I don't care if it's only for 5 or 10 minutes, or if everyone else lights up in that place because it's allowed, that's 10 minutes that I have to sit with my eyes stinging and bear that smell until I'm forced to move elsewhere because someone hasn't the courtesy to smoke outside.
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