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Old 12-28-2002, 12:17 PM   #21
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In defending the USA, I'm not saying the USA is 100% perfect or fundamentally better than anyone else. But we have had a better track record in foreign policy since 1945 than any other country on the planet.
that's a very interesting statement, I guess
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Old 12-28-2002, 03:14 PM   #22
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So you agree US has had connection with doubtful allies in the past? (I also remember - more than 1 - article here in a local newspaper talking just about that).

As far as I know, Japan was very weak at the time and could have been defeated in short time. I don't think the rest of it would have claimed millions.
But still, what possible reason can there be for killing thousands of civilians , and doing irreversible damage to future generations (from the radiation)? The war would have ended sooner or later, and it's not like it was a question who would win.

IMO it didn't happen because it was necessary, but more because the US happened to be the first country to develop the bomb and took advantage of it that way.



BUT, let's get back to the original question.
How are armed soldiers (and I'm sure the interrogators aren't exactly empty handed) threatened by unarmed, (tied, chained/tied legs and blindfolded) people who are probably heaviliy guarded all the time? Not to mention the ratio of manpower is probably very much in favor of the US.

If terrorists are treated properly, how do you explain the article (and rumours ever since the Guantanamo prisoners came up)? Who knows how much your friend saw (and how much he is allowed to tell)?
Yes you have the right to detain and get information - I'm just saying it can be done differently.
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Old 12-28-2002, 03:34 PM   #23
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rono rono rono.
welcome to the age of information.
welcome to the reality of war.
welcome to the reality of being a terrorist caught by the usa.
boo-hoo.



dB8
There are moments that i am glad that i have read paxetaureras post.

It is all about revenge and not about Justice i guess. But we know now why Amirica will not accept the international court of Justice.

And Sting please shut up about kosokov or so,... why did the usa sold weapons to the Moslims in Sebrenica ? That is one of the reasons the the serb`s felt free to invade Sebrinica. And where was the airsupport ?


Sting , we are paying our debts

The Dutch did give the Americans airsupport today in afghanistan.

And sorry that our whole fleet was not at Pearl Habour,...

9:00 AM Crew of the Dutch liner JAGERSFONTEIN opens up with her guns, the first Allies to join the fight...Radios throughout the island crack out urgent messages "Get off roads and stay off.. Don't block traffic...Stay at home...This is the real McCoy

Found on :
http://schoolweb.missouri.edu/ashlan...ler/table.html
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Old 12-28-2002, 05:28 PM   #24
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Cow and U2Girl,

Over 50 million people died and World War II, most of them from the Soviet Union(30 million).

The fact that the A-bomb saved millions of lives is easily proved by the fact that Japan was ready to fight to the last man if conventional war would have continued. I suggest you read what happened when the USA invaded Okinawa! Okinawa was a perfect example of what would happen all over Japan in early 1946 when the USA would invade.

The US Strategic Air Command had been continuelly bombing Japan and would have continued its bombing raids to soften up the island for invasion well into early 1946. The worst attacks on Japan that took the most lives were NOT the A-Bomb attacks, but the military and industrial bombing that had been occuring on an on going basis, often producing losses well in excess of either of the A-Bomb attacks. If this bombing had continued beyond August of 1945, millions of Japanese citizens would have been killed.

Then the invasion would have occured in 1946 and based on Japanese resistance on the Pacific islands, resistance would have been heavy and Japanese soldiers would have fought to the last man. So there is a few more million people that would have been killed. USA losses would likely be well over a hundred thousand. Maybe more, despite US strength at the time. In addition, millions more Japanese civilians would be caught in the crossfire of the invasion. Then, just like on Okinawa, many Japanese civilians would have committed suicide.

Bottom line is that continued conventional bombing plus a US invasion of mainland Japan in early 1946 would have killed tens of millions of people. Conventional bombing of Japan had already killed several million Japanese soldiers and civilians.

Ask nearly any US soldier who fought in the Pacific in World War II and they will tell you that the A-Bomb saved their life and the lives of millions of Japanese civilians and soldiers. The A-Bombs stopped a war that would have continued for another 8 months or more. It was indeed very necessary in order to save the lives of millions. It was not about being the first to have the bomb or the opportunity to use it, because there have always been opportunities to use it, but never a clear cut senerio where its use would save millions of lives, like it did in the situation with Japan.
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Old 12-28-2002, 05:47 PM   #25
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U2Girl,

Pakistani soldiers last year had captured several Al Quada and were transporting them by bus to a US base. Although the Al Quada were tied up, they managed to get free and overwhelmed the guards and killed about 10 Pakistani soldiers before they were all killed.

My friend will tell you that guarding and controlling them is a dangerous mission. He spent 6 months in Afghanistan heavily involved in doing this. He is allowed to tell plenty but if there is something he is not allowed to talk about, he informs me that is classified. There was nothing classified about the procedures for detaining, processing and interorgating Al Quada personal in Afghanistan. My friend knows a lot about this because he was involved in the very process were talking about, unlike the people who work for the media in Europe. If you want to question my friends experience and simply doubt it because it does not support your point of view or belief, fine. But realize he knows more about the process than the European media or other media.

The USA has the right to detain and get information that could potentially save millions of peoples lives. The USA uses no single interrogation method to extract that information, and given the potential risk(millions of peoples lives), all methods of extraction have so far been justified.
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Old 12-28-2002, 06:06 PM   #26
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Rono,

In case you did not know, Sebrinica is in Bosnia, not Kosovo. At the time of the massacre in Sebrinica, the Clinton administration was following the lead of the European countries which wanted to continue to bring about a ceacefire through the UN without military action from the USA or NATO. Muslim fighters in Bosnia obtained weapons from various sources, but it was rather limited to begin with anyway. The Muslims were poorly equiped and not an offensive military threat to the Bosnian Serb military that had tanks, Ammored Personal Carriers, and heavy Artillery and Helicopter Gunships. There was a move in the US congress to supply the Muslims with arms, but it was blocked by the Clinton Adminstration.

Remember, the Dutch gave up Sebrinica to the Serbs. I don't recall the Dutch calling for airsupport, but even if they did, the current structure of UN forces at the time and given the close proximity of Serb forces, Air Power would not have been able to have made a difference. Plus, most European governments at the time would have opposed it. The USA had been calling for airstrikes since 1993, but had decided to follow the European lead on handling the Crises.

Only after this and the Market bombing in Sarajevo did the Clinton Administration decide that the Europeans had no idea what they were doing, and launched large scale military strikes throughtout Bosnia that forced the Serbs to give in and negotiate, there by ending the war that had taken 250,000 lives and the Europeans had failed with their methods to prevent and stop.
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Old 12-29-2002, 03:47 AM   #27
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I must totally agree with you Sting, especially on the A-bomb issue. People complain about you bring up past incidents(like myslef) but then some of them turn around and try to do it themselves when it serves their purpose.

And for anyone out there who think POW(AQ) should be treated with great care, get real. These people would do anything to kill an american and without the heavy pressures of interogations they wont say a word. These people are fanatics and must be treated hostilly.
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Old 12-29-2002, 04:43 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
If you want to question my friends experience and simply doubt it because it does not support your point of view or belief, fine.
I did neither of those things. All I said was I wonder how much he really saw from the interrogations and how much he is allowed to say. (lots of people were imprisoned anyway, how can you know all were treated right judging just by one person's account?)

OK then, what do you make of some of the US sources in the article that speak of the interrogation methods?


As for A-bomb: well I think the main interest was to save American lives - and indeed plenty of those were saved, and it would seem weird to say it helped save Japanese lives (Either way, Japanese deaths would occur anyway - bomb or no bomb, as you stated - of course they will fight to the last man on their home soil. Or maybe not, if the country would get weak enough they might have surrendered. Guess we'll never know...) and that it was a good thing - try explaining that to Japenese people who still mourn on the anniversaries of the bombing.
Why do you say it wasn't about the first having the bomb - when there was a competition between countries who would make it first? Maybe not the first to have it, but obviously the first country ready to use the bomb. (though if someone uses the bomb first, isn't it logical to assume they were the first to make it in the first place?)



You know, we can talk about this for days and get nowhere - can we agree to disagree? Obviously we see things differently. If you believe in the "end justifies means" principle, fine.
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Old 12-29-2002, 05:59 PM   #29
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How do you know anyone was in fact treated poorly? Terrorist are not to be treated like kings. Remember, the chief task in interrogating the prisoners is to get information that could potentially save millions of lives. If the particular means lead to an end which prevents the loss of thousands, or millions of people, clearly, the end does justify the means.

As far as Japan, remember that far more Japanese soldiers and civilians were killed by conventional warefare than the A-Bombs dropped on Horoshima and Nagasaki. Millions of Japanese citizens and soldiers were killed in battle and by conventional bombing of Japan throughout World War II. The number of deaths from the A-Bomb attacks on Japan are a tiny fraction of the total number of Japanese that were killed in the war.

The continuation of the war beyond August of 1945 if the A-Bomb had not been dropped would have killed millions more Japanese as evidence by what had already happened in the war and at Okinawa, plus the fact that all combat would not be taking place on the Japanese home islands. Japanese deaths would have substationally increased. The A-Bombs forced an immediate Japanese surrender which prevented the war from continueing which would have killed millions of people. Compare that to the 300,000 killed in the two A-Bomb attacks combined. Tens of millions of Japanese citizens and soldiers compared to 300,000. Its sad that was the only way to prevent the war from continuing, but it did save millions of Japanese people.

Imagine the number of people that would have been saved on 9/11 if US military aircraft had been able to shoot down the hi-jacked planes the terrorist had. 300 innocent people would have died instead of 3,000.
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Old 12-30-2002, 03:53 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
How do you know anyone was in fact treated poorly? Terrorist are not to be treated like kings. Remember, the chief task in interrogating the prisoners is to get information that could potentially save millions of lives. If the particular means lead to an end which prevents the loss of thousands, or millions of people, clearly, the end does justify the means.
I have this sneaking suspicion that the Iraqi authorities are going to agree with this statement when they capture an American, English - or from whatever country he / she might be - soldier during the upcoming war
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Old 12-30-2002, 04:48 AM   #31
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Oh really? Who are the innocent lives that Iraqi Authorities are trying to save and how would any information the average US soldier or airman have, help them in accomplishing this task?
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Old 12-30-2002, 05:15 AM   #32
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Originally posted by STING2
Oh really? Who are the innocent lives that Iraqi Authorities are trying to save and how would any information the average US soldier or airman have, help them in accomplishing this task?
I don't know. But in Iraqi eyes they are enemy soldiers (probably calling them 'enemy terrorists' or something like that). They'll want military information from them, information that may save innocent lives, their own lives or no lives at all. But that's not important, they will regard them as enemies who may have information. So all means will be justified to get any possible information.

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Old 12-30-2002, 08:31 PM   #33
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The difference is that our "END" is justified, their "END" is not.
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Old 12-31-2002, 01:42 AM   #34
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well Sting, personally I agree with you
the majority of the world probably agrees on that one
I'm a bit scared what the future reaction of the (not so small) minority might be though
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Old 12-31-2002, 01:51 AM   #35
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Originally posted by bonoman


And for anyone out there who think POW(AQ) should be treated with great care, get real. These people would do anything to kill an american and without the heavy pressures of interogations they wont say a word. These people are fanatics and must be treated hostilly.
I agree!!!
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Old 12-31-2002, 03:15 AM   #36
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The difference is that our "END" is justified, their "END" is not.
In "YOUR" eyes it maybe is, but in "THEIR" eyes they may see it differently. They'll probably use that exact same sentence.
It's not a case of agreeing with the USA point of view or not, it's about adhering to standards of humanity.

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Old 12-31-2002, 04:28 AM   #37
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It is not in the interest of the planet to always adhere to a certain standard of humanity in interrogation if it makes it impossible to attain certain information that could save the lives of millions of people. Which is more important, the lives of millions of people, or adhering to someone's standard for humanity in the interrogation of an individual?
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Old 01-01-2003, 07:21 AM   #38
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I feel it's strange to refer to the agreement on how to treat prisoners of war as "adhering to someone's standard"

I thought the main reason we have standards like this one is because we know that some situations can't be dealt with objectively
instead of letting our heart dictate the way we reason we have standards to dictate our reason
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Old 01-02-2003, 02:48 PM   #39
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I don't think anyone is letting their heart get in the way when interrogating the prisoners. The objective is attaining information that could save millions of lives. In life or death situations of that magnitude, virtually any method of interrogation is justified if it will get the information that is needed to save thousands or millions of lives.
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