so...Hillary Clinton...or... Billary Clinton???

[indra]

I'm just so sick and tired of the American dynasties that are BUSH/CLINTON/BUSH/CLINTON - What the hell is wrong with America. Why on earth can't they choose someone else...my God...really!!!

Perhaps Hillary should change her name back to Rodham.

 

[Harry Vest]

As usual, I'm with you 100% Irvine. It saddens me that it has gotten to the point where the Clintons really disgust me. I didn't want it to come to that, but it has because of their nasty double teaming.

What scares me is that if she were to squeak out the nomination, by the time it gets to the general election people are going to be so sick of the Clintons...including myself...and that will lead to another republican president. I admit, I am aware that I am a very partisan person, and when she/they turn off someone as dedicated to the Democratic party as myself, I know I am not alone in this, no good can come of a Clinton nomination.

Nicely put...much more polite than myself.

 

[A_Wanderer]

This thread calls for some talking points from a drink-sodden trotskyite popinjay for war

 

[U2DMfan]

*his* attacks are below the belt?

(blinks eyes)

*his* attacks?

no, no, I mean the Clinton attacks. I might have loused up the wording or you just misunderstood or something. I can't really tell because I'm dizzy from realizing how much Clintonian ass I'm kissing.

anyhow (more betterer said):
They are somehow so below the belt that Obama, the wordsmith can't even manage to slap Hillary back and make it stick.

I'm saying, perhaps Obama isn't the heavyweight some think if he can't rebuff Hillary Pantsuit. Or maybe she's pretty sharp herself, on her own.

but it's a moot point anyways. You weren't trying to say she's completely hollow, just totally tied to Bill. I think she's a bit more independent than that but not enough to argue about.

 

[U2democrat]

I'd say Obama's doing pretty darn well taking these hits.

Feb 5 will be a huge test, but I believe many candidates would have buckled to their attacks by now.

 

[maycocksean]

As usual, I'm with you 100% Irvine. It saddens me that it has gotten to the point where the Clintons really disgust me. I didn't want it to come to that, but it has because of their nasty double teaming.

What scares me is that if she were to squeak out the nomination, by the time it gets to the general election people are going to be so sick of the Clintons...including myself...and that will lead to another republican president. I admit, I am aware that I am a very partisan person, and when she/they turn off someone as dedicated to the Democratic party as myself, I know I am not alone in this, no good can come of a Clinton nomination.

I feel like it's 2002 all over again and we're talking about going to war in Iraq. Once again something is so obviously a bad idea to me. . .I'm just flabbergasted more people can't see it.

We've got Democrats--Democrats, people!--disgusted with Hillary Clinton. People who WANT to like her! Can you imagine what it's going to be like when the Republicans enter the arena? Everything negative from the Clinton years will be brought back--the abortive healthcare plan, Whitewater etc. They will put all that in everyone's face. Can you not see it?

If it's the Obamamania that gets in your craw, then what about Edwards? I think he'd have a better shot against a Republican nominee than Clinton would. Don't misread the opposition to Hillary in this thread--it's not merely obsessive "Obama support", it runs deeper than that and to insist it's all motivated by misguided, idealistic hero worship would be a costly mistake.

That said, I'm glad the mods let this thread stand. It's certainly been one of the more fascinating reads in awhile.

 

[diamond]

Re: Re: so...Hillary Clinton...or... Billary Clinton???

No candidate is going to be our Savior.

wanna bet?

 

[U2DMfan]

What scares me is that if she were to squeak out the nomination, by the time it gets to the general election people are going to be so sick of the Clintons...including myself...and that will lead to another republican president. I admit, I am aware that I am a very partisan person, and when she/they turn off someone as dedicated to the Democratic party as myself, I know I am not alone in this, no good can come of a Clinton nomination.

U2Dem, I share the same concerns, believe it or not. I just think she can win it.

I think an Obama that crumbles in Jan/Feb at the first sign of any attack is an Obama that would hand the Republicans the White House on a silver platter. So if he comes through this, he's all the better. If he doesn't, did we really want him in the first place?

That's sort of my stance. Yes, I support Hillary Clinton because I think she can win. 4 more years of Republicans in the White House is just grotesque to think about. Even the fairly social moderate McCain wants to fight in Iraq until the end of time. None of those other Republicans would change anything.

Maybe Hillary doesn't lead the revolution this country needs or that Obama could have a chance to lead but it's better than the alternatives by a mile. Ultimately, I don't think this bickering among the Dems is all that bad.

The media will move on to the big story by the Spring.
Whoever the nominee is, Obama or Clinton, will be the big story.
All of this nonsense will be forgotten (hopefully). There will be plenty of "did you hear what McCain said about the Democrats being traitors"? and all that.

Long ways to go.

 

[watergate]

I like both Edwards and Obama. How come Hillary doesn't mention that in 1964 she was a Republican and she supported Goldwater as president? Obama and I were in preschool when the march on Washington occurred. Both Obama and I weren't even born when Kennedy was elected. Air America radio is calling Bill Clinton the new Karl Rove. I'm a third generation feminist and I'm not going to vote for someone just because she is a woman. Hillary and Bill Clinton's actions show me that they have no character nor honor. The November issue of Vanity Fair has an article on how the Clintons back stabbed Al Gore in 2000. Anyone that back stabs their own friends to get ahead would never have my support. Plus where is my health care that they promised and the nation wide child care that they promised when Bill won? I hope that if she gets the nomination that Bloomberg jumps into the race. I'd rather see an Obama/Edwards ticket. One last thing Bill Richardson hasn't said who he is going to back for president, because he is too busy trying to get a health care bill for all New Mexicans passed in New Mexico. His dropping out of the race is New Mexico's gain.

 

[U2DMfan]

We've got Democrats--Democrats, people!--disgusted with Hillary Clinton. People who WANT to like her! Can you imagine what it's going to be like when the Republicans enter the arena? Everything negative from the Clinton years will be brought back--the abortive healthcare plan, Whitewater etc. They will put all that in everyone's face. Can you not see it?

She's leading the national polls, what does this say about Obama? Maybe people have different issues outside of what the media is trying to forcefeed them. Oh wait...Chris Matthews just blasted Hillary and made another stump speech for Obama on his show....anyhow what was I saying?

There are people in the Republican Party who loathe the field.
they see:
Romney is too slick, northeastern and flip-floppery bop.
Huckabee is too hickabee, liberal and clueless on foreign policy. McCain is too old and way too soft on immigration. Giuliani is an outright liberal on the most hardcore social issues.

THEY ALL HAVE ISSUES and almost all of them are unknowns on a national scale.

 

[maycocksean]

U2Dem, I share the same concerns, believe it or not. I just think she can win it.

I disagree. I doubt she can win and even if she does I'm not convinced it will improve the divided state of our nation.

Of course, I'd be very happy if I'm wrong on both counts.

The media will move on to the big story by the Spring.
Whoever the nominee is, Obama or Clinton, will be the big story.
All of this nonsense will be forgotten (hopefully). There will be plenty of "did you hear what McCain said about the Democrats being traitors"? and all that.

My hunch is that the big story the Republicans will be telling in the spring will be the same one we're hearing now within the Democratic party's camp. "The Clintons are a souless, ruthless, ambitious driving force. Do we really want people like that in the White House (again)." And so on. The term Billary will be used more, not less.

 

[watergate]

NBC news showed a poll tonight that if it was Clinton vs. McCain she would lose. Obama vs. McCain, Obama would win. Besides its who counts the vote. At least in New Mexico we have gotten legislation for voter reform passed and our ballots are paper not black box machines. One thing the media never mentions all of the grassroots movements that are active in the Democratic Party across the country and are trying to take the party back from the DNC and people like the Clintons and their Wall Street backers. Remember Wall Street is selling America down the river. There is a class war in this country and the richest 1% have declared war on the rest of us.

 

[Irvine511]

Re: Re: Re: so...Hillary Clinton...or... Billary Clinton???

wanna bet?

what celestial body is he ruling?

 

[Irvine511]

There are people in the Republican Party who loathe the field.

this is quite true. and i'd hope that the deep hatred for McCain felt by the GOP base would kill him as the nominee, and the anti-Mormon bigotry would kill Romney as well.

but is this what we want? another 49.6% president like GWB?

 

[U2DMfan]

I disagree. I doubt she can win and even if she does I'm not convinced it will improve the divided state of our nation.

Of course, I'd be very happy if I'm wrong on both counts.




My hunch is that the big story the Republicans will be telling in the spring will be the same one we're hearing now within the Democratic party's camp. "The Clintons are a souless, ruthless, ambitious driving force. Do we really want people like that in the White House (again)." And so on. The term Billary will be used more, not less.

It's a fair point.

We are not fractured on one issue or even a handful of issues, we are fractured on sheer idealogy. No person is going to fix this.
No party is going to fix this. The biggest chasm in our country is over the role of social politics. Why would one liberal be easy to digest and not another?

It's a supposed solution that defies itself. Moderates aren't acceptable to the far left or the far right.
That's about 40% gone right there. The best one could hope, I suppose is a Clinton '96-like victory. And we know the problems he encountered afterward.

I think Obama could have a chance to rectify some of the absolute polarization but the first time he appoints a Choice-judge to the SC, or tries to push a stem cell bill through. All the goodwill is gone.

I don't see this as cyncical. It's reality.

 

[deep]

the GOP machine is against McCain, they will never forgive him for finance campaign reform
among a few other things

and they can not stomach Huckabee's populace talk about helping poor people and the fact that he raise taxes in Ark.


They machine had high hopes for Giuliani and they like Romney, too


I expect Huckabee and Rudy to fade soon

Romney will be the pick of GOP insiders
McCain will be the pick of GOP regular people

 

[U2DMfan]

but is this what we want? another 49.6% president like GWB?

I think it's maybe the cards we are dealt.
My previous response to maycocksean, dealt with this a bit.

I dont have to tell you about the wrath of the social conservatism.

Is Obama just going to sell the 'Left' out to heal these rifts?

I don't think he would. He'd be dealing with the right-wing beast in no time.

We are a country on two different paths.
A more secular nation and a more religous nation.
We also have 75% or whatever and ALL Republicans wanting to toss some Mexicans out on their ass. How is he going to deal with this? It's the #1 issue for them.

Just reasoning why I think this is a realism and not cynicism.

 

[deep]

No Billary here

just Hillary

 

[deep]

Michelle Obama
"We knew getting into this race that Barack would be competing with Senator Clinton and President Clinton at the same time," she wrote in a fundraising appeal to supporters. "What we didn't expect, at least not from our fellow Democrats, are the win-at-all-costs tactics we've seen recently."

If they aren't "in it to win it".

Then why run?

Maybe Obamas would prefer a candidate like Fred Thompson
sleep walking his way through

or an idiot like Giuliani, choosing not to compete in most of the early primaries and getting 1% of the vote

 

[yolland]

nm

 

[deep]

"kid" is a racial slight. my boyfriend's grandparents called black men "boy" their whole life.


.....
i would have happily voted for her as a respectable second choice should she be the nominee.

now, i'll have to shower afterwards.

I can say with certainly that "boy" is a slur.

Even today older men 50s and 60s +
use that term among themselves when they speak about black men they do not like

I guess the concept is that even a black adult male is no more responsible than a boy

and that a boy should be submissive to a man.


Clinton called himself the "Comeback kid"

When I hear older people using the term "kid" for adults it seems they are suggesting youth.

When Clinton chose the word kid
he may have been implying youth or suggesting lack of experience.

I have been called kid by people 15 - 20 years older than myself. I don't recall being called "boy" by any of them.

I think Obama is capable of beating the GOP candidate.

I would vote for him, even after all the whining.
I will not have to take a shower afterwards.
I don't think of him in "that way".

 

[maycocksean]

If they aren't "in it to win it".

Then why run?

Everybody's in it to win it. Not everyone is willing to play dirty or cheat to win. I think that's what Mrs. Obama was implying.

 

[U2democrat]

Here's an excellent op-ed from the Washington Post on how Hillary unites the GOP.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy.../01/24/AR2008012402797.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

 

[BonosSaint]

That was kind of a surface analysis. I think this is going to be a more complex election than we've seen in the past. I think block goups are splintered. I don't think this is a philosophical election. I think it is a meat and potatoes one. I'm not getting a gauge on the independents yet.

 

[Irvine511]

Maybe Obamas would prefer a candidate like Fred Thompson
sleep walking his way through

or maybe every time Hillary gets into political trouble as president, she'll cry, and then send her husband out to throw tantrums and suck all media attention away from her shortcomings.

 

[diamond]

Hillaryland Is Hell, Staffers Say

Friday, January 25, 2008 12:44 PM

By: Newsmax Staff Article Font Size




Despite Hillary Clinton’s surprising win in the New Hampshire primary, discontent remains the order of the day in “Hillaryland,” according to an article in the liberal New Republic.

“For all of Team Hillary’s gifts, it is not known as a happy group,” Michelle Cottle writes in the magazine.

“‘I’ve never seen a campaign where everyone feels so bad about themselves,’ says one campaign staffer, echoing others.”

That feeling was palpable the morning after Clinton’s defeat in the Iowa caucuses, when a “sad and sorry Team Hillary” gathered for a conference call with the candidate, Cottle relates.

After Hillary came on the line, message guru Mandy Grunwald tried to spur conversation by asking staffers if they had any thoughts. No one spoke. After a pregnant pause, Hillary began talking for a few minutes about the campaign. Again, silence.

An angry Hillary finally snarled: “This has been very helpful talking to myself” — and hung up.

Following Iowa, rumors began circulating that there would be a major shakeup in the Clinton campaign staff. Then came the New Hampshire win. But discord remains in Hillaryland, the New Republic article disclosed.

The unease has been spurred in large part by the “fear-inducing, high-handed” leadership of the advisors known as “the Five” – Grunwald, campaign manager Patti Solis Doyle, top strategist Mark Penn, policy chief Neera Tanden, and communications director Howard Wolfson.

The five, called by Cottle the “devout members of Hillaryland,” have kept “an iron grip on everything from ideas to access.”

The staffer deemed most likely to be replaced after Iowa was Penn, according to Cottle.

“The reasons are legion: his high profile; his right-of-center politics; his myopic focus on issues; his dismissal of the need for Hillary to get personal and address her likability problem; his unusual dual role as top strategist and pollster; and, of course, his famously rough manner.”

New Hampshire brought Penn a reprieve — and not everyone in the Clinton campaign was happy about that.

“So strong was the desire for change,” Cottle writes, “that the Granite State miracle, while obviously a godsend, left some staffers deflated as it became clear that the planned overhaul had been derailed.”





© 2008 Newsmax. All rights reserved.


Print Page | Forward Page | E-mail Us

 

[deep]

or maybe every time Hillary gets into political trouble as president, she'll cry, and then send her husband out to throw tantrums and suck all media attention away from her shortcomings.

calculated or legitimate?

end result
changed momentum to allow Clintons to pursue their agenda

I remember the 90s quite well
and those Clintons are tricky
they just won't lie down and die

and they manage to keep pushing their agenda
or modify it enough to keep it going (for the most part)

their programs and agendas (as they triangulated and changed them even) were very good for the country and the international community

yes, I can pick parts that I think were wrong

but with them and any administration one should grade on the overall achievements

just give a score to Clintons two terms

and the two headed- monster and administration of Karl Rove (that no one voted for but everyone had to campaign and legislate against) and W Bush



I just ordered a very nice body wash product to send to you
you will be voting for Billary.

 

[deep]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: so...Hillary Clinton...or... Billary Clinton???

and if you think that Bush is someone who cannot admit he's ever made a mistake, wait till we have the Clintons back in the white house.

Fri Jan 25, 8:56 AM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Former President Bill Clinton said he might have gone too far in attacking Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton said on Friday, adding that both Democratic presidential campaigns should focus on issues.

"He said several times yesterday that maybe he got a little bit carried away," Hillary Clinton said on CBS' "Early Show."

 

[Irvine511]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: so...Hillary Clinton...or... Billary Clinton?

i'm talking about the Mrs.

especially that Iraq vote. was it a mistake?

 

[Irvine511]

calculated or legitimate?

end result
changed momentum to allow Clintons to pursue their agenda

I remember the 90s quite well
and those Clintons are tricky
they just won't lie down and die

because that's how the Russians won WW2 -- scorched earth.

I just ordered a very nice body wash product to send to you
you will be voting for Billary.

i prefer Kiehls. i shall see when it arrives the extent to which my vote shall be affected.

i also enjoy a specific bodywash that one can order from 10,000 Waves in Santa Fe. i had the privilege of hanging with one joyfulgirl, and whenever i use the wash purchased at said spa, i am taken back to that lovely weekend.