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Old 04-05-2008, 11:26 AM   #21
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is that a real parrot in that picture?
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Old 04-05-2008, 01:24 PM   #22
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Yeah, I'm not convinced it's not a hoax either. I'm even less convinced that 'he' can be classified as a male. It sounds like an utter failure of a sex change. Removing ones' booswahs a man does not make. Or something. I don't see them as anything but a lesbian couple with one partner missing a few parts and gaining a baby.


I'm confused.


i haven't paid much attention to this, but Memphis told me last night that this couple hasn't been totally embraced by the Transgendered community. of course, everyone wishes them happiness and love and a healthy baby, but most TG's feel as if they were born in the wrong body and that this really does feel more like a lesbian couple.
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Old 04-05-2008, 01:32 PM   #23
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i haven't paid much attention to this, but Memphis told me last night that this couple hasn't been totally embraced by the Transgendered community. of course, everyone wishes them happiness and love and a healthy baby, but most TG's feel as if they were born in the wrong body and that this really does feel more like a lesbian couple.
Thanks for this bit of information. That's something I was grappling with. In my own (admittedly ignorant) mind, I would speculate that a transgendered man would not have the desire to become pregnant and carry a child - an act that is seemingly feminine in nature. In this case, I'm obviously wrong. At any rate, I wish the couple and their family a healthy baby, and much happiness.
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Old 04-05-2008, 01:38 PM   #24
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Originally posted by Irvine511
i haven't paid much attention to this, but Memphis told me last night that this couple hasn't been totally embraced by the Transgendered community. of course, everyone wishes them happiness and love and a healthy baby, but most TG's feel as if they were born in the wrong body and that this really does feel more like a lesbian couple.
Here's the moment where I evoke "Queer theory" and argue that these narrow categorizations of "heterosexual," "homosexual," and "transgender" can sometimes be too confining. Minorities of any kind shouldn't have to conform to narrow definitions of individual subordinate hegemonies.

(Okay, I threw in a dash of Marxist theory in the end too.)
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Old 04-05-2008, 02:31 PM   #25
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Just think in a few years when this father says to his kid "I brought you into this world and I can take you out" he means it literally!
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Old 04-05-2008, 02:54 PM   #26
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Here's the moment where I evoke "Queer theory" and argue that these narrow categorizations of "heterosexual," "homosexual," and "transgender" can sometimes be too confining. Minorities of any kind shouldn't have to conform to narrow definitions of individual subordinate hegemonies.

(Okay, I threw in a dash of Marxist theory in the end too.)



yeah ... well, i do understand on an intellectual level, but on a practical/political level, but i do know that TG's have a difficult time being taken seriously by society at large, and i can see how frustrating it is when you spend years telling people that you were born in the wrong body to see someone who wants to have it both ways. it's the same kind of frustration, i think, that some gay men have with bisexual men, that they're trying to have their cake and eat it too, to be gay but not have to bear any responsibility.

i finally found an Onion article from way back that i think gets to the heart of it in a humorous manner:

[q]Area Man Experimenting With Homosexuality For Past Eight Years

October 25, 2000 | Issue 36•38

LOUISVILLE, KY–Describing himself a "going through a little phase," 26-year-old heterosexual Michael Litwin has been experimenting with homosexuality for the past eight years.

"I'm a very open, curious person, and right now I'm in a bit of an exploratory phase, sexually," Litwin said. "The woman I marry will definitely have to be okay with my past."

Since first deciding to "open up and try new things" in 1992, the "99 percent straight" Litwin has had 23 male sexual partners and one female partner. And though he said that "having a wife and kids and the house out in the suburbs with the white picket fence" is his eventual goal, Litwin is currently dating "a real mix of people."

"Before I do settle down with one woman for the rest of my life, it's important for me to 'do a little exploring,' so to speak," Litwin said. "And part of that process, for me, involves trying out some new things. Again, though, I must stress that it's temporary: Dating people of my own gender is not something I see myself doing in the long run."

Though Litwin has many gay friends and possesses "a certain appreciation for gay culture," he can't see himself in a permanent same-sex relationship.

"I just can't get used to the idea of only having sex with men," Litwin said. "The truth is, I simply adore women." As evidence of his attraction to women, Litwin pointed to the copy of the Madonna book Sex on his coffee table and a framed poster of Audrey Hepburn on the wall.

"I have absolutely nothing against homosexuality," Litwin added. "Some of my best friends are gay."

Of these friends, Litwin has had at least limited sexual contact with nearly all. Among them is Peter Skye.

"I met Michael at an art opening a few years back and, boy, did we hit it off," said Skye, 27, a waiter and part-time actor. "It's too bad he's not gay, because he was incredible in bed."

After dating Skye for seven months, Litwin ended the brief flirtation with homosexuality in favor of a period of experimentation with restaurateur Tyler Randolph. According to Litwin, he "sort of saw" Randolph on a strict "no promises" basis for two years.

"I was living in Chicago when Michael and I met at a party," Randolph said. "Right from the start, there was amazing chemistry between us. We started seeing each other every weekend. But eventually, the strain of the long-distance thing got to be too much. That's why we broke up. That and Michael's inability to keep his cock out of my roommate Bruce's mouth."

According to Litwin, he has only had one serious relationship in his life: a three-year romance with high-school sweetheart Jenny Tankart that ended during the pair's sophomore year of college.

"I simply haven't had enough experience to really know what I want yet," Litwin said. "What I do know is that I don't need to be seriously involved with anyone right now. I've really enjoyed being single all these years. I like having my own place, with my own TV and my own leather five-piece sectional. Things were just way too claustrophobic with Jenny."

Now married with children, Tankart looks back fondly on her relationship with Litwin.

"Michael was a really nice guy–and a real gentleman, too," Tankart said. "He was always very supportive about my wanting to wait until marriage. So many of the guys I used to date just wanted one thing. Not Michael."

Litwin said he has been searching for the right woman for years, but every time he thinks he has found "the one," something goes wrong.

"My first few dates with Rachel went great, but then I found out she has a dog," Litwin said. "Then there was Annette a few years later, but there was just something about the way she dressed that turned me off. And Julie was terrific, but she lived all the way over in the next town. I wonder if I'll ever find true love."

While no woman has yet won Litwin's heart, women have taken an interest in him.

"When Michael started working here, I thought he was really cute," said Samantha Ringley, a coworker of Litwin's at Yellow Moon Graphic Design. "I didn't want to be wasting my time, so I asked him outright if he was gay. He started laughing and said, 'No, no, no!' After laughing for a long time, he said, 'I guess you could say I'm straight but not narrow[/q]


not sure where i fall on these things -- i tend to take a "free-to-be-you-and-me" approach, but then i haven't spent my life fighting in the trenches against injustice in the way that some people have.
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Old 04-05-2008, 03:24 PM   #27
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"I just can't get used to the idea of only having sex with men," Litwin said. "The truth is, I simply adore women." As evidence of his attraction to women, Litwin pointed to the copy of the Madonna book Sex on his coffee table and a framed poster of Audrey Hepburn on the wall.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i can see how frustrating it is when you spend years telling people that you were born in the wrong body to see someone who wants to have it both ways. it's the same kind of frustration, i think, that some gay men have with bisexual men, that they're trying to have their cake and eat it too, to be gay but not have to bear any responsibility.
And some women feel that way towards transvestite men. But how many "ordinary" pregnant women are going to get the kind of harassment through to hostility from relatives, doctors and neighbors that a pregnant transsexual man would? Even compared to other transsexual men, isn't he drastically upping his social risks by doing this? I have a hard time seeing it as "having your cake and eating it too" when that's taken into account--even though I can grant that yes, it's doubtless highly unusual for a self-identified transman to want to get pregnant in the first place.
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Old 04-05-2008, 04:00 PM   #28
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I have a hard time seeing it as "having your cake and eating it too" when that's taken into account--even though I can grant that yes, it's doubtless highly unusual for a self-identified transman to want to get pregnant in the first place.


that might not have been the most eloquent phrase, but it's the idea that if you are a man and you've been able to assign yourself the male body, why then choose do to something that only women can do?

i think that's where the issues that the TG community has in not wanting to claim this man as one of their "own," so to speak. it's not that they aren't fully supportive of his right to identify how he wants and to have a family, but that he doesn't fall under the umbrella of what most in the TG community consider to be TG.

of course, as Melon has pointed out, that raises a whole other set of questions and it does seem a bit exclusionary to me, but then again, if you've been fighting for years to gain acceptance of the fact that TG people feel that they were born in the wrong body, that everything about them is authentically the other gender, to see something like this might be seen as a complication with the potential to become a setback.
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Old 04-05-2008, 04:34 PM   #29
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Intriguing story. I guess what I kind of wonder is why the wife didn't want to be the one to carry the baby. Did they discuss that on Oprah? I mean they had to know that this would create all kinds of hoopla in the media and attention on themselves.
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Old 04-05-2008, 04:38 PM   #30
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Intriguing story. I guess what I kind of wonder is why the wife didn't want to be the one to carry the baby.
She had a hysterectomy.
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Old 04-05-2008, 04:41 PM   #31
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Oh. Thanks Indra.
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Old 04-05-2008, 05:04 PM   #32
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It's nice they can have a baby. As for the whole male thing, I'm inclined to agree with the previous posters who have said that physiologically it's just a lesbian couple having a child.
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Old 04-05-2008, 09:21 PM   #33
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Same here. The way I see it, if you have female genitals and organs -- which Beatie has, and not one of both sexes-- you obviously are a woman. To me, this a pregnant woman without breasts and has a deep voice and beard.

And BTW, if they're both lesbians, why would one of them want to be a man? And how does the other feel about her girlfriend turning into a man when she's not attracted to men? Is there bisexuality going on there?
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Old 04-05-2008, 09:42 PM   #34
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Originally posted by Pearl
And BTW, if they're both lesbians, why would one of them want to be a man? And how does the other feel about her girlfriend turning into a man when she's not attracted to men? Is there bisexuality going on there?
Sexual orientation and gender identity are two separate issues. As such, there are transgendered individuals who are effectively heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual like the rest of society.
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Old 04-05-2008, 09:50 PM   #35
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finally, someone willing to address the real issues here
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Old 04-05-2008, 10:02 PM   #36
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The way I see it, if you have female genitals and organs -- which Beatie has, and not one of both sexes-- you obviously are a woman.
Most transsexual men still have female genitals, though, at least in the US. Phalloplasty is extremely expensive and almost no insurance plans here cover it, plus it's not as advanced as vaginoplasty and thus the results are often less than satisfactory, both aesthetically and functionally. As explained in the article, though, testosterone therapy does cause significant changes in the size of the genitals (specifically the clitoris) all by itself.
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Old 04-07-2008, 08:41 PM   #37
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I must admit, this does my head in a little as its' way outside my frame of reference - although I have to agree with one of the first posters here (sorry too lazy to quote) that all a family needs is love & no matter how a family is made, its the welfare of the child that should be of utmost importance . . . I just hope that child has an easy ride and isn't maligned for how he/ she came into this world
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Old 04-08-2008, 12:13 AM   #38
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i watched the Oprah episode on this, and i it seems as if the two will make fine parents and provide a loving home.



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Old 04-08-2008, 12:36 AM   #39
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^What he said

I just saw the episode over the weekend. Thought it was quite interesting. And I don't know if it was mentioned early on, but Oprah did ask him if he felt he was born in the wrong body, as some people feel, and he said no. And I believe he stopped taking testosterone about 2 years ago. And they did pick out a sperm donor, and the wife impregnated the husband. And for those that didn't see the show (again, I didn't read thru the whole first post since I had seen the episode), the wife has 2 adult daughters. And Thomas had been pregnant before, but it was an ectopic pregnancy & had to be terminated, and one of his/her two tubes tied, making the chances of getting pregnant that much more difficult. I wish them all the best.
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